TSE:AI Atrium Mortgage Investment Q1 2023 Earnings Report C$10.85 +0.07 (+0.65%) As of 05/2/2025 04:00 PM Eastern Earnings HistoryForecast Atrium Mortgage Investment EPS ResultsActual EPSC$0.31Consensus EPS N/ABeat/MissN/AOne Year Ago EPSN/AAtrium Mortgage Investment Revenue ResultsActual Revenue$23.71 millionExpected RevenueN/ABeat/MissN/AYoY Revenue GrowthN/AAtrium Mortgage Investment Announcement DetailsQuarterQ1 2023Date5/10/2023TimeN/AConference Call DateThursday, May 11, 2023Conference Call Time4:00PM ETConference Call ResourcesConference Call AudioConference Call TranscriptInterim ReportEarnings HistoryCompany ProfilePowered by Atrium Mortgage Investment Q1 2023 Earnings Call TranscriptProvided by QuartrMay 11, 2023 ShareLink copied to clipboard.There are 4 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:01Welcome to the Atrium Mortgage Investment Corporation's First Quarter Conference Call. At this time, all lines are in a listen only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded Thursday, May 11, 2023. Certain statements will be made during this phone call that may be forward looking statements. Operator00:00:28Although Atrium believes that such statements are based on reasonable assumptions, actual results may differ materially. Forward looking statements are based on the beliefs, estimates and opinions of Atrium's management on the date the statements are made. Atrium undertakes no obligation to update these forward looking statements in the event that management's beliefs, estimates or opinions or other factors change. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Goodall, President. Operator00:00:57Please go ahead. Speaker 100:00:59Thanks, and thanks for calling in today. Our CFO, John Ahmad, will start by talking about our financial results, and then I will speak about our performance from an operational and portfolio perspective. John? Speaker 200:01:12Thank you, Rob. I'm pleased to announce that Atrient continued to deliver strong financial results for shareholders in the Q1 of 2023. Our record net income of $14,200,000 translated into an earnings per share of $0.33 which beat our previous public record $0.31 in Q4 of 2022 was also up significantly from $0.25 in the prior year. This performance was driven by maintaining a relatively high gross mortgage portfolio balance of $846,000,000 This is down 2.4% quarter over quarter, but up almost 7% over the prior year quarter. We had $65,000,000 of principal advances in Speaker 100:01:57the quarter, very similar output to Q4, but Speaker 200:02:00this was offset by $87,000,000 of repayments. The repayments did include a couple of larger ticket loans, which can skew production one way or the other. The slight contraction in the portfolio was more than compensated for by a record high weighted average interest rate on our portfolio, which was 11.04% atquarterend. This was up from 10.77% in the previous quarter end and 8.32% in the prior year quarter end. The increase in the weighted average rate was largely driven by Bank of Canada rate increases. Speaker 200:02:34The Bank of Canada raised its policy rate 25 bps in the Q1 and 4.25 bps over the past year, but the increase was also due to a gradual shift in the portfolio towards variable rates. 79% of the portfolio was based on floating rates at quarter end compared to 63% in the prior year quarter. Turning to the funding side of our business, our credit facility usage tracked Slightly lower this quarter to $207,000,000 which is in line with our portfolio movement. The rate on this facility does move with time. Our average rate was 6.72 percent in Q1 of 2023. Speaker 200:03:13This is higher than 4.5% over the course of last year and 2.92% in the prior year quarter due to higher benchmark rates driven by Bank of Canada rate increases. The facility did, however, represent only 24.2 percent of our funding sources at quarter end. Our other funding sources include convertible debentures, which remain locked in at favorable rates that stagger over several years. The convertible debentures represented about 18.2% of our funding sources at quarter end, with the balance of our funding comprised largely of equity capital. Our balance sheet remained in a low leverage position at 44% at Quarter end with ample capacity in our facilities to both grow the portfolio, provide liquidity should the need arise. Speaker 200:04:00Our overhead expenses, including our largest expense, our management fees, remain in line with expectations. We did book a provision of $950,000 in Q1 of 2023 to bring our total allowance to 11,700,000 or 1.38 percent of our gross mortgage portfolio. This is up from 1.24% at year end. The increase in our UCL reserves was due to a combination of factors. The first is a deterioration in macroeconomic indicators, Ultimately, drive higher provisioning for Stage 1 loans as we believe credit risk is heightened for all lenders in the market, including Atrium. Speaker 200:04:40In addition, we also had a modest increase in our Stage 2 reserves as well. On a net basis, Stage 2 loans increased to $37,000,000 from $26,000,000 over the quarter. Most of this increase, about $8,000,000 is driven by residential mortgages that Loans classified as Stage 2 have exhibited factors that indicate an increase in credit risk, And overall, the account was up 4.4% of our total portfolio at quarter end, which is up from 3% in the previous quarter. These loans are not impaired. Otherwise, they would be classified as Stage 3. Speaker 200:05:21As you can see in our results, we have no Stage 3 loans at quarter end. We assess all loans in Stage 2 individually to derive what we consider to be a conservative approach to provisioning based on potential outcomes. Overall, our portfolio continues to hold up well, given the slow market conditions. Stepping back, the business produced excellent first quarter results, including a record net income of $14,200,000 Despite slower real estate market conditions, our business model continues to generate strong earnings. Higher benchmark rates have decreased our portfolio rate. Speaker 200:05:58We maintain a relatively high portfolio balance with what feels like a solid pipeline given current market We continue to remain disciplined with respect to our operating expenses and most importantly, maintain a very strict focus on risk management We continue to ensure the business maintains a strong balance sheet during these uncertain market conditions. We also want to ensure that we are positioned with ample capacity to grow to the right risk reward opportunities arise. Rob, I'll pass it back to you for the business. Speaker 100:06:34Thanks very much. As John said, Atrium mix generated record Basic earnings per share in Q1 of $0.33 following our previous record earnings of $0.31 just last quarter. The mortgage portfolio actually dropped by approximately $20,000,000 and finished at $846,000,000 Loan advances of $69,000,000 were similar to last quarter and below normal levels, which reflects the general lack of activity in the real estate market. For the quarter, 93.5 percent of the new funded loans were from Ontario, 6.5% from BC. Loan repayments were surprisingly high at almost $88,000,000 most of which were loans in Ontario. Speaker 100:07:17Atrium's average rate rose from 10.77% last quarter to 11.04% in Q1. This is primarily due to a 25 basis point increase in prime during the quarter. Approximately 79% of our loans are now floating and directly benefit from the increase in the primary of interest. However, we believe that our mortgage rate, our average mortgage rate has probably peaked and will gradually drop in future quarters as we focus on high quality new loan business. Despite the reduction In the mortgage portfolio in Q1, we are seeing lots of good opportunities and currently have over $100,000,000 in our pipeline. Speaker 100:07:57With the escalation in interest rates, we've been able to reduce our spread over prime and compete more effectively with banks and trust companies. For example, when prime was 2.45%, our lowest rate was still 7.5%, equivalent to prime plus 5.05%. But with prime currently at 6.7%, we can price at a much finer spread over prime. This allows us to source higher quality loans, which is a particularly critical consideration at this point in the economic cycle. So I expect that our loan portfolio At the end of Q2 will be larger than it is today. Speaker 100:08:39The loan quality of Atrium's portfolio remained high in Q1. The total of our high ratio loans, that being loans over 75% loan to value, was $31,000,000 equal to 3.7 percent of the portfolio. However, our largest loan in this category will be paid down or was paid down to 65.5 percent loan to value in April, thereby reducing Atrium's current high ratio loans to only 1.9% of the total portfolio. Excluding this loan, and the guarantee is very strong. So we continue to have no concerns about this loan. Speaker 100:09:392nd, a $1,500,000 1st mortgage Calgary, which is in arrears, but has been conditionally sold by the borrower's Realtor with a closing date at the end of June. Interviews with 2 realtors also suggest a value well above our exposure level. The balance of $7,500,000 in high ratio loans are single family loans, 12 in number, where our loan to value ranges from 75.9 percent to 93.1 percent. In Q1, the average loan to value of the portfolio Increased marginally from 59.4 percent last quarter to 60.8% at the end of this quarter and continues The portfolio is now 72.1 percent in Ontario, 26.8% in BC and 1.1% in Alberta. We remain comfortable with this geographic allocation. Speaker 100:10:44Atrium's percentage of first mortgages actually hit a record high of 95.5% in Q1. It was 92.5% last quarter. Ontario and BC now each have more than 95 The percentage of construction loans remained steady at 6.8% of the portfolio and our average loan to value on construction loans was modest at 61.7%. Given the difficulty of controlling construction costs and the timeframes To completion, we feel a conservative level of exposure to construction loans is appropriate at this time. Perhaps the risk metric which best exemplifies Lending's philosophy is that 96.3 percent of the portfolio was less than or equal to 75% loan to value, which reflects a very defensively positioned portfolio. Speaker 100:11:41Turning to defaults, there were 3 commercial loans in default representing just 3.2 percent of the portfolio. The first is a presold project in Sutton that we've reported on previously. It has a $7,800,000 balance. It's in 1st mortgage position and has been in and out of default over the last couple of years due to the excessive amount of debt subordinate to Atrium and an uncooperative and unscrupulous borrower. Atrium has an estimated loan to value of 64% and we do not foresee a loss. Speaker 100:12:13Atrium's collateral consists of Phases 2 to 5, which have block Plan approval for 138 building lots as well as a 6 acres school site and a small commercial block. A private receiver was engaged at the end of 2021 in order to prevent the borrower from stalling the development process. Subsequent to quarter end, Phases 2 and 4 were registered and proceeds of sale received in April reduced our loan all the way down to 2,400,000 We expect the borrower to draw another $1,100,000 of our loan in Q2 and Q3 before Phase 3 and 5 are registered and close. We expect registration to occur in either Q3 or Q4, at which time this loan should be repaid in full. The 2nd commercial loan in default is zoned for 8 townhouses. Speaker 100:13:09I referred to it earlier. It's a loan in Calgary, where we have a $1,500,000 exposure. The 2 business partners recently got into a disagreement and stopped paying making interest payments. We've now got the legal right to sell the project and we were on the verge of listing it for $2,400,000 However, The borrower's realtor, who had already been working on selling the property, just entered into a conditional purchase and sale agreement for $2,350,000 The deal is scheduled to close at the end of June. And if it doesn't, our realtor will take over the process on July 3rd and list the property for $2,400,000 So we don't expect the loss on this loan. Speaker 100:13:52The last It's probably the most highly publicized and that is the loan to Stateview. It's got a loan balance of 17.8%. Atrium holds the most senior ranking $17,800,000 Atrium holds the most senior ranking $17,800,000 tranche of a $23,240,000 first mortgage, with the balance of 5.44 1,000,000 ranking subordinate and held by another lender. We've also recently learned that the borrower granted second mortgage to a private lender and a 3rd mortgage to TD Bank. The borrower is secured the loan is secured rather by a 5.3 acre development site Located northwest of the intersection of Macoun Road and 14th Avenue and Markham. Speaker 100:14:39Planning applications were initially submitted in 2021, proposing 76 traditional townhouse units. However, the borrower submitted revised planning applications in 2022 with the support of the city, increasing the total number of units to 84 units. Approval of this revised Development plan was reported to be imminent prior to the event of default. After non payment of an interest payment due On April 1, we quickly engaged a litigation lawyer and issued demand letters and a notice of intent to enforce. A court appointed receiver was appointed on May 2 with the consent of Stateview. Speaker 100:15:25The receiver has issued an RFP to a number of prominent realtors to market the property for sale with proposals due on May 17. Meanwhile, Stacy has also engaged had already also engaged a real estate agent to generate purchase offers. And one conditional offer was provided for a combined purchase of our site and the adjacent site. Assuming that the price would be a portion based on a unit count, which is the logical assumption, our loan The price is valued at between $25,000,000 $27,000,000 for our parcel, which aligns with our current underwriting and obviously would result in a full recovery. Fortunately, Atrium has no additional loan exposure to the borrower. Speaker 100:16:14Defaults in the single family portfolio consisted of 14 loans totaling $8,600,000 However, 9 of those 14 loans are actually current with their mortgage payments and are only in technical default due to Realty Tax arrears. Overall, we're pleased with the resiliency of the portfolio. We analyze We increased Atrium's loan loss provision In Q1 by $952,000 to reflect the increased risk in real estate markets overall. The loan loss reserve The loan loss reserve continues to have no Stage 3 allocation, meaning no impaired loans. Turning to foreclosures, we continue to have 2 foreclosed properties, a 4plex in Leduc and the second is a 90 unit rental project in Regina. Speaker 100:17:16The Leduc balance is unchanged to $1,100,000 We believe that the $1,100,000 carrying cost for Leduc is appropriate as it is consistently 100% leased and generates between a 4% and a 4.5% yield. The Regina project Was also 100% leased throughout the quarter and we're passing through rent increases as leases are expiring. The carrying cost of the Regina is $13,200,000 which we believe is also representative of current value. The change in market conditions has been very positive over the last 12 months. We recently raised our rental rates by an average of 4.1% and we are meeting no resistance from tenants. Speaker 100:17:58The 2022 CMHC market survey for Regina was released in early 2023 and confirm that there was no dramatic improvement sorry, that there was a dramatic improvement in market conditions. We reported an overall vacancy rate in Regina up 3.2%, down from 7.1% last year and 7.5% in 2020. My economic commentary is as follows. The economic news in the Q1 was stronger than expected. However, real GDP growth Weakened each month. Speaker 100:18:36It was up 0.6% of 1% in January, 0.1% of 1% in February, and the preliminary estimate for March is a decline of 0.1% on an annualized basis. So growth in Q1 is estimated at 2.5%, but virtually all of that increase came in January. April looks to fall due to the federal workers' strike. RBC is still forecasting a mild GDP decline in Q2 and Q3. During the quarter, inflation kept dropping, ending the quarter at 4.3%, which compares to 6.3% at the end of last quarter. Speaker 100:19:16Much of the easing was explained by lower energy prices, which were lower than a year ago. The Bank of Canada's core inflation measures averaged 3.6% on an annualized basis over the last 3 months. The Bank of Canada expects inflation to drop to 3% by the middle of this year and 2% by the end of 2024. If such an improvement were to occur, We could expect short term rates to start dropping possibly towards the end of the year and certainly by the beginning of 2024. Turning to the commercial markets. Speaker 100:19:52According to CBRE, cap rates on commercial real estate rose by an average of 48, 49 basis points in 2022 and a further 10 basis points to 6.1% in the 1st quarter. Investors are mostly targeting high quality assets, while liquidity for Class B assets weakens. Industrial buildings and apartments remain steady. They are the 2 favorite sectors in the market with low vacancy rates and rental growth. Vancouver has cap rates in the industrial sector averaging 4.25%, while multifamily cap rates are in the 3% range. Speaker 100:20:31In Toronto, industrial cap rates were also in the 4 quarter range, while apartment cap rates are slightly higher than Vancouver at 3.5%. Not surprisingly, the largest increase in cap rates was in the office sector ranging from 4.5% The 5.75 percent for Class A downtown assets in Vancouver and Toronto. Cap rates are higher in both cities for suburban office assets. The national office vacancy rate reached a shocking 17.7% in Q1. Thankfully, Atrium has very limited exposure to the office sector, As we've always believed, it's a sector best suited for very well capitalized borrowers, including REITs and institutional investors, We can absorb the ups and downs of the market. Speaker 100:21:23Looking at the residential resale market, The news for resales in April was positive for both the GTA and Metro Vancouver. Resales in the GTA were 9.2% higher than March. April 23 sales were only 5.2% below April 22 sales. April 23 sales were only 5.2% below April 22 sales when the market was very active. The number of listings Increased by 1.6% on a month over month basis, but is still 38% lower on a year over year basis. Speaker 100:21:58The benchmark price was up 2.4% last month. It's down 12.1% year over year, but that's an improvement from 14.2% Speaker 200:22:09decline at Speaker 100:22:10the end of last quarter. In Metro Vancouver, there were 2741 resales in April, which was 16.5% below last year, but the housing market was peaking at that time. So these sales results do represent an improvement in the market conditions. And new listings were 4.2% below last year and 21% below the 10 year average. As a result, the benchmark price increased by 2.3% month over month and it's actually increased by 5% since the beginning of the year. Speaker 100:22:45Benchmark prices are now only 7.4% below last year. Turning to new home sales, the sales of new homes remained weak across the country. CMHC is forecasting that homebuilding Could drop by 19% in 2023. Due to a lack of new launches, new high rise sales in the GTA For Q1, dropped 77% from the peak of the market last year. Low rise sales also declined 63% from last year. Speaker 100:23:17The benchmark price for high rise and low rise product has fallen 10.8% and 2.1% respectively on a year over year basis. The supply of unsold high rise inventory is still reasonable at 14,500 units, of which 56 units are in the presale stage, so they may never get built. Of the 110,000 units currently under construction, 93% are pre sold and there are only 406 high rise units outstanding inventory. Similarly, the inventory of unsold low rise homes was modest at 1592 units. In Vancouver, new home sales are gradually improving. Speaker 100:24:02In Q4, sales were 33% higher than the previous quarter. On an annual basis, Metro Vancouver's sales We're just 7% below the 10 year average. Signs of a market rebound were most prominent in the South of Fraser region as 4th quarter sales were up 89% from the previous quarter. Only 6% of all concrete condominium units Scheduled to be complete by the end of 2023 remain unsold. Standing inventory Of completed move in ready units at the end of Q4 was 9 70 units. Speaker 100:24:41It's not surprising that the resale market Is improving faster than the new home market. The price gap between resales and new home prices had grown to a point where many investor buyers were not as keen to purchase pre construction units. I think we will need further price appreciation in the resale market before we begin to see a sustained recovery in the new home market. The key to a housing and commercial real estate recovery is a reduction in inflation and interest rates. Fortunately, 5 10 year bond yields have reduced to 3.07% and 2.9% respectively, which suggests that The bond market believes that inflation will continue to drop. Speaker 100:25:28I do believe that pricing growth in the resale markets in the GTA and Vancouver We'll accelerate once the cost of debt declines for the following three reasons. Number 1, the structural housing shortage in both cities cannot be remedied anytime soon. Number 2, immigration is at a record level and the federal government intends to increase the immigration target to 500,000 people annually by 2025. And number 3, the apartment and condominium rental markets just seem to continue to be exceptionally strong and keep increasing rents. To summarize, Q1 was another very good quarter for Atrium. Speaker 100:26:07The arrears level is still low with only 3 commercial loans in arrears. So the portfolio is showing resiliency in the face of weak market conditions. Our foreclosed assets are actually performing at their best levels ever, and I expect they will continue to perform well, notwithstanding soft economic conditions. We've been informed by Realtors that demand for multi residential assets in the Prairies is quickly increasing and we will look at selling these assets sometime over the next year or so. But the balance of 2023 will be challenging for the real estate industry as a whole. Speaker 100:26:43Today's high interest rates will continue to put pressure on real estate values and strain borrowers' abilities to service their debt. In my opinion, a drop in inflation and particularly in short term interest rates is by far the most important change needed to improve the real estate market. Until investors and developers feel assured that interest rates are beginning to decline, many will choose or be forced to stay on the sidelines. We are actively managing our existing portfolio to identify weaknesses early and deal with them expeditiously. The Stateview loan is a good example. Speaker 100:27:18The reason that our single loan to this borrower was publicized in the newspaper is because we took legal action before With 5 managing directors having more than 18 years of lending experience and 3 of us with more than 30 years of experience, we have the necessary experience to deal with economic slowdowns. However, the good news is we're also seeing an increase in the high quality lending opportunities. So I suspect that our loan portfolio We'll be higher at the end of Q2 than it is today. Thank you. We'd be pleased to take any questions from the listeners. Operator00:27:57Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll now conduct the question and answer session. Okay. Your first question comes from Raseem Baja from TD Securities. Please go ahead. Speaker 300:28:29Afternoon. Thank you. If I could start on Stateview. So I appreciate the comments you gave in your prepared remarks. Just a couple of questions here. Speaker 300:28:38To confirm, these are all development plans, so no construction has started against these mortgages? Speaker 100:28:45Yes, that's right. It's a townhouse site with, I guess, up to 84 townhouse units. Speaker 300:28:55Okay. And are these already in your Stage 2 loans? Speaker 100:29:01Yes. It's in the Stage 2 loan, yes. Speaker 300:29:04Okay. So if I could switch gears to your construction portfolio, I think you mentioned 6.8%. Are you able to share what sort of construction assets these are? Are these mainly multifamily properties or any other asset classes? Speaker 200:29:23I don't have it off the top of Speaker 100:29:25my head, but I think it's mostly multifamily Condominium, I think it's a variety, but it would be primarily those 2. Speaker 300:29:35Okay, Understood. And just my last question on the mortgage rate. Absent any unexpected interest rate hikes by the Bank of Canada this year, Would you say your mortgage rate has peaked around these levels? And is there actually even a potential for it to come down modestly as you target higher quality borrowers? Speaker 100:29:55Yes. I do think regardless like I'm not expecting Prime to come down until The very beginning of 2024 or the very end of 2023. But I think our rates have peaked and will come down slightly. And the reason is that if think about A situation where a loan is 18 months old. And so it was priced when prime was at 2.45% and say it was Priced at prime plus 5, as I mentioned to you, that was sort of our minimum rate when prime was that low. Speaker 100:30:32It was like an overall 7.5% rate. Well, that same loan is now over 11%. It's mispriced. So you have a choice of losing that loan. It'll probably get prepaid. Speaker 100:30:47And you may never see that client again, that developer client again, or you can adjust the pricing when you feel it's appropriate, and then retain that client for goodwill purposes. So one of our peers has already shown a drop in their average mortgage rate in this quarter. We didn't, But we expect that it could be slightly down. It's not going to be drastically, but it could be slightly down in the remaining quarters of 2023. Speaker 300:31:20Okay. Makes sense. As an extension, sorry, if I could just sneak in one more question. Your mix of floating rate mortgages, I believe you're 79% now. And back in 2021, I think you were high low 60s, if I remember. Speaker 300:31:39Do you see this mix changing towards the end of the year? And the reason I ask is because if all the forecasts about rate cuts in 24 come out to Speaker 100:31:46be true, would you look Speaker 300:31:47to reposition your portfolio more towards a fixed balance? Speaker 100:31:53So a borrower would generally prefer a fixed rate just because it creates certainty. But they're not going to be thrilled about a fixed rate today because they know that interest rates are very likely to come down in the next 6 months Or 8 months or whatever. So, we're still doing floating rates Because they see the potential of that rate coming down. So then the negotiation becomes what's the floor, okay? And up until this quarter, the floor was the current prime rate plus our spread. Speaker 100:32:31So we can only go up. We couldn't go down. But now it gets harder and harder as it becomes clearer and clearer when inflation is coming down, the rates are going to drop. So in some of our more recent loans, the floor might be slightly below where the prime plus Spread of the loan is today. Speaker 300:32:56Okay. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, yes, I do. There is a bit more downside on the risk now that it flows slower because there is more visibility on interest rates coming back. Speaker 100:33:09Yes, that's right. Speaker 300:33:11Okay. Thanks for your time. Okay. Operator00:33:23Okay. There are no further questions at this time. I'll turn it back to Mr. Goodall for closing remarks. Speaker 100:33:29Okay. Thanks very much for calling in. I hope you're pleased with our results. I think that's our 3rd quarter in a row of record earnings. So we're very pleased with them and pleased with the way the portfolio has held up, continuing to hold up in the face of soft market conditions. Speaker 100:33:51So appreciate those of you who are shareholders supporting us and Have a good day. Thanks very much. Operator00:34:00Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines.Read morePowered by Conference Call Audio Live Call not available Earnings Conference CallAtrium Mortgage Investment Q1 202300:00 / 00:00Speed:1x1.25x1.5x2x Earnings DocumentsInterim report Atrium Mortgage Investment Earnings HeadlinesHow to Turn a $20,000 TFSA Into $200,000March 25, 2025 | msn.comPublic market insider buying at Atrium Mortgage InvestmentMarch 14, 2025 | theglobeandmail.comBuffett’s favorite chart just hit 209% – here’s what that means for goldA Historic Gold Announcement Is About to Rock Wall Street For months, sharp-eyed analysts have watched the quiet buildup behind the scenes. Now, in just days, the floodgates are set to open. The greatest investor of all time is about to validate what Garrett Goggin has been saying for months: Gold is entering a once-in-a-generation mania. Front-running Buffett has never been more urgent — and four tiny miners could be your ticket to 100X gains.May 4, 2025 | Golden Portfolio (Ad)3 Reasons to Buy Atrium MIC Stock Like There’s No TomorrowMarch 11, 2025 | msn.comFundamental Research Reaffirms Their Buy Rating on Atrium Mortgage Invest (AI)March 11, 2025 | markets.businessinsider.comAtrium Mortgage Investment Full Year 2024 Earnings: EPS Beats ExpectationsMarch 8, 2025 | finance.yahoo.comSee More Atrium Mortgage Investment Headlines Get Earnings Announcements in your inboxWant to stay updated on the latest earnings announcements and upcoming reports for companies like Atrium Mortgage Investment? Sign up for Earnings360's daily newsletter to receive timely earnings updates on Atrium Mortgage Investment and other key companies, straight to your email. Email Address About Atrium Mortgage InvestmentAtrium Mortgage Investment (TSE:AI) Corp is a non-banking finance company providing residential and commercial mortgages that lends funds in major urban centres in Canada where the stability and liquidity of real estate are high. Its objectives are to provide its shareholders with stable and secure dividends and preserve shareholders' equity by lending within conservative risk parameters. The company generates its revenue from mortgage interest and fees.View Atrium Mortgage Investment ProfileRead more More Earnings Resources from MarketBeat Earnings Tools Today's Earnings Tomorrow's Earnings Next Week's Earnings Upcoming Earnings Calls Earnings Newsletter Earnings Call Transcripts Earnings Beats & Misses Corporate Guidance Earnings Screener Earnings By Country U.S. Earnings Reports Canadian Earnings Reports U.K. Earnings Reports Latest Articles Amazon Earnings: 2 Reasons to Love It, 1 Reason to Be CautiousMeta Takes A Bow With Q1 Earnings - Watch For Tariff Impact in Q2Palantir Earnings: 1 Bullish Signal and 1 Area of ConcernVisa Q2 Earnings Top Forecasts, Adds $30B Buyback PlanMicrosoft Crushes Earnings, What’s Next for MSFT Stock?Qualcomm's Earnings: 2 Reasons to Buy, 1 to Stay AwayAMD Stock Signals Strong Buy Ahead of Earnings Upcoming Earnings Palantir Technologies (5/5/2025)Vertex Pharmaceuticals (5/5/2025)Realty Income (5/5/2025)Williams Companies (5/5/2025)CRH (5/5/2025)Advanced Micro Devices (5/6/2025)American Electric Power (5/6/2025)Constellation Energy (5/6/2025)Marriott International (5/6/2025)Energy Transfer (5/6/2025) Get 30 Days of MarketBeat All Access for Free Sign up for MarketBeat All Access to gain access to MarketBeat's full suite of research tools. Start Your 30-Day Trial MarketBeat All Access Features Best-in-Class Portfolio Monitoring Get personalized stock ideas. Compare portfolio to indices. Check stock news, ratings, SEC filings, and more. Stock Ideas and Recommendations See daily stock ideas from top analysts. Receive short-term trading ideas from MarketBeat. Identify trending stocks on social media. Advanced Stock Screeners and Research Tools Use our seven stock screeners to find suitable stocks. Stay informed with MarketBeat's real-time news. Export data to Excel for personal analysis. Sign in to your free account to enjoy these benefits In-depth profiles and analysis for 20,000 public companies. Real-time analyst ratings, insider transactions, earnings data, and more. Our daily ratings and market update email newsletter. Sign in to your free account to enjoy all that MarketBeat has to offer. Sign In Create Account Your Email Address: Email Address Required Your Password: Password Required Log In or Sign in with Facebook Sign in with Google Forgot your password? Your Email Address: Please enter your email address. Please enter a valid email address Choose a Password: Please enter your password. Your password must be at least 8 characters long and contain at least 1 number, 1 letter, and 1 special character. Create My Account (Free) or Sign in with Facebook Sign in with Google By creating a free account, you agree to our terms of service. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
There are 4 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:01Welcome to the Atrium Mortgage Investment Corporation's First Quarter Conference Call. At this time, all lines are in a listen only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded Thursday, May 11, 2023. Certain statements will be made during this phone call that may be forward looking statements. Operator00:00:28Although Atrium believes that such statements are based on reasonable assumptions, actual results may differ materially. Forward looking statements are based on the beliefs, estimates and opinions of Atrium's management on the date the statements are made. Atrium undertakes no obligation to update these forward looking statements in the event that management's beliefs, estimates or opinions or other factors change. I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mr. Goodall, President. Operator00:00:57Please go ahead. Speaker 100:00:59Thanks, and thanks for calling in today. Our CFO, John Ahmad, will start by talking about our financial results, and then I will speak about our performance from an operational and portfolio perspective. John? Speaker 200:01:12Thank you, Rob. I'm pleased to announce that Atrient continued to deliver strong financial results for shareholders in the Q1 of 2023. Our record net income of $14,200,000 translated into an earnings per share of $0.33 which beat our previous public record $0.31 in Q4 of 2022 was also up significantly from $0.25 in the prior year. This performance was driven by maintaining a relatively high gross mortgage portfolio balance of $846,000,000 This is down 2.4% quarter over quarter, but up almost 7% over the prior year quarter. We had $65,000,000 of principal advances in Speaker 100:01:57the quarter, very similar output to Q4, but Speaker 200:02:00this was offset by $87,000,000 of repayments. The repayments did include a couple of larger ticket loans, which can skew production one way or the other. The slight contraction in the portfolio was more than compensated for by a record high weighted average interest rate on our portfolio, which was 11.04% atquarterend. This was up from 10.77% in the previous quarter end and 8.32% in the prior year quarter end. The increase in the weighted average rate was largely driven by Bank of Canada rate increases. Speaker 200:02:34The Bank of Canada raised its policy rate 25 bps in the Q1 and 4.25 bps over the past year, but the increase was also due to a gradual shift in the portfolio towards variable rates. 79% of the portfolio was based on floating rates at quarter end compared to 63% in the prior year quarter. Turning to the funding side of our business, our credit facility usage tracked Slightly lower this quarter to $207,000,000 which is in line with our portfolio movement. The rate on this facility does move with time. Our average rate was 6.72 percent in Q1 of 2023. Speaker 200:03:13This is higher than 4.5% over the course of last year and 2.92% in the prior year quarter due to higher benchmark rates driven by Bank of Canada rate increases. The facility did, however, represent only 24.2 percent of our funding sources at quarter end. Our other funding sources include convertible debentures, which remain locked in at favorable rates that stagger over several years. The convertible debentures represented about 18.2% of our funding sources at quarter end, with the balance of our funding comprised largely of equity capital. Our balance sheet remained in a low leverage position at 44% at Quarter end with ample capacity in our facilities to both grow the portfolio, provide liquidity should the need arise. Speaker 200:04:00Our overhead expenses, including our largest expense, our management fees, remain in line with expectations. We did book a provision of $950,000 in Q1 of 2023 to bring our total allowance to 11,700,000 or 1.38 percent of our gross mortgage portfolio. This is up from 1.24% at year end. The increase in our UCL reserves was due to a combination of factors. The first is a deterioration in macroeconomic indicators, Ultimately, drive higher provisioning for Stage 1 loans as we believe credit risk is heightened for all lenders in the market, including Atrium. Speaker 200:04:40In addition, we also had a modest increase in our Stage 2 reserves as well. On a net basis, Stage 2 loans increased to $37,000,000 from $26,000,000 over the quarter. Most of this increase, about $8,000,000 is driven by residential mortgages that Loans classified as Stage 2 have exhibited factors that indicate an increase in credit risk, And overall, the account was up 4.4% of our total portfolio at quarter end, which is up from 3% in the previous quarter. These loans are not impaired. Otherwise, they would be classified as Stage 3. Speaker 200:05:21As you can see in our results, we have no Stage 3 loans at quarter end. We assess all loans in Stage 2 individually to derive what we consider to be a conservative approach to provisioning based on potential outcomes. Overall, our portfolio continues to hold up well, given the slow market conditions. Stepping back, the business produced excellent first quarter results, including a record net income of $14,200,000 Despite slower real estate market conditions, our business model continues to generate strong earnings. Higher benchmark rates have decreased our portfolio rate. Speaker 200:05:58We maintain a relatively high portfolio balance with what feels like a solid pipeline given current market We continue to remain disciplined with respect to our operating expenses and most importantly, maintain a very strict focus on risk management We continue to ensure the business maintains a strong balance sheet during these uncertain market conditions. We also want to ensure that we are positioned with ample capacity to grow to the right risk reward opportunities arise. Rob, I'll pass it back to you for the business. Speaker 100:06:34Thanks very much. As John said, Atrium mix generated record Basic earnings per share in Q1 of $0.33 following our previous record earnings of $0.31 just last quarter. The mortgage portfolio actually dropped by approximately $20,000,000 and finished at $846,000,000 Loan advances of $69,000,000 were similar to last quarter and below normal levels, which reflects the general lack of activity in the real estate market. For the quarter, 93.5 percent of the new funded loans were from Ontario, 6.5% from BC. Loan repayments were surprisingly high at almost $88,000,000 most of which were loans in Ontario. Speaker 100:07:17Atrium's average rate rose from 10.77% last quarter to 11.04% in Q1. This is primarily due to a 25 basis point increase in prime during the quarter. Approximately 79% of our loans are now floating and directly benefit from the increase in the primary of interest. However, we believe that our mortgage rate, our average mortgage rate has probably peaked and will gradually drop in future quarters as we focus on high quality new loan business. Despite the reduction In the mortgage portfolio in Q1, we are seeing lots of good opportunities and currently have over $100,000,000 in our pipeline. Speaker 100:07:57With the escalation in interest rates, we've been able to reduce our spread over prime and compete more effectively with banks and trust companies. For example, when prime was 2.45%, our lowest rate was still 7.5%, equivalent to prime plus 5.05%. But with prime currently at 6.7%, we can price at a much finer spread over prime. This allows us to source higher quality loans, which is a particularly critical consideration at this point in the economic cycle. So I expect that our loan portfolio At the end of Q2 will be larger than it is today. Speaker 100:08:39The loan quality of Atrium's portfolio remained high in Q1. The total of our high ratio loans, that being loans over 75% loan to value, was $31,000,000 equal to 3.7 percent of the portfolio. However, our largest loan in this category will be paid down or was paid down to 65.5 percent loan to value in April, thereby reducing Atrium's current high ratio loans to only 1.9% of the total portfolio. Excluding this loan, and the guarantee is very strong. So we continue to have no concerns about this loan. Speaker 100:09:392nd, a $1,500,000 1st mortgage Calgary, which is in arrears, but has been conditionally sold by the borrower's Realtor with a closing date at the end of June. Interviews with 2 realtors also suggest a value well above our exposure level. The balance of $7,500,000 in high ratio loans are single family loans, 12 in number, where our loan to value ranges from 75.9 percent to 93.1 percent. In Q1, the average loan to value of the portfolio Increased marginally from 59.4 percent last quarter to 60.8% at the end of this quarter and continues The portfolio is now 72.1 percent in Ontario, 26.8% in BC and 1.1% in Alberta. We remain comfortable with this geographic allocation. Speaker 100:10:44Atrium's percentage of first mortgages actually hit a record high of 95.5% in Q1. It was 92.5% last quarter. Ontario and BC now each have more than 95 The percentage of construction loans remained steady at 6.8% of the portfolio and our average loan to value on construction loans was modest at 61.7%. Given the difficulty of controlling construction costs and the timeframes To completion, we feel a conservative level of exposure to construction loans is appropriate at this time. Perhaps the risk metric which best exemplifies Lending's philosophy is that 96.3 percent of the portfolio was less than or equal to 75% loan to value, which reflects a very defensively positioned portfolio. Speaker 100:11:41Turning to defaults, there were 3 commercial loans in default representing just 3.2 percent of the portfolio. The first is a presold project in Sutton that we've reported on previously. It has a $7,800,000 balance. It's in 1st mortgage position and has been in and out of default over the last couple of years due to the excessive amount of debt subordinate to Atrium and an uncooperative and unscrupulous borrower. Atrium has an estimated loan to value of 64% and we do not foresee a loss. Speaker 100:12:13Atrium's collateral consists of Phases 2 to 5, which have block Plan approval for 138 building lots as well as a 6 acres school site and a small commercial block. A private receiver was engaged at the end of 2021 in order to prevent the borrower from stalling the development process. Subsequent to quarter end, Phases 2 and 4 were registered and proceeds of sale received in April reduced our loan all the way down to 2,400,000 We expect the borrower to draw another $1,100,000 of our loan in Q2 and Q3 before Phase 3 and 5 are registered and close. We expect registration to occur in either Q3 or Q4, at which time this loan should be repaid in full. The 2nd commercial loan in default is zoned for 8 townhouses. Speaker 100:13:09I referred to it earlier. It's a loan in Calgary, where we have a $1,500,000 exposure. The 2 business partners recently got into a disagreement and stopped paying making interest payments. We've now got the legal right to sell the project and we were on the verge of listing it for $2,400,000 However, The borrower's realtor, who had already been working on selling the property, just entered into a conditional purchase and sale agreement for $2,350,000 The deal is scheduled to close at the end of June. And if it doesn't, our realtor will take over the process on July 3rd and list the property for $2,400,000 So we don't expect the loss on this loan. Speaker 100:13:52The last It's probably the most highly publicized and that is the loan to Stateview. It's got a loan balance of 17.8%. Atrium holds the most senior ranking $17,800,000 Atrium holds the most senior ranking $17,800,000 tranche of a $23,240,000 first mortgage, with the balance of 5.44 1,000,000 ranking subordinate and held by another lender. We've also recently learned that the borrower granted second mortgage to a private lender and a 3rd mortgage to TD Bank. The borrower is secured the loan is secured rather by a 5.3 acre development site Located northwest of the intersection of Macoun Road and 14th Avenue and Markham. Speaker 100:14:39Planning applications were initially submitted in 2021, proposing 76 traditional townhouse units. However, the borrower submitted revised planning applications in 2022 with the support of the city, increasing the total number of units to 84 units. Approval of this revised Development plan was reported to be imminent prior to the event of default. After non payment of an interest payment due On April 1, we quickly engaged a litigation lawyer and issued demand letters and a notice of intent to enforce. A court appointed receiver was appointed on May 2 with the consent of Stateview. Speaker 100:15:25The receiver has issued an RFP to a number of prominent realtors to market the property for sale with proposals due on May 17. Meanwhile, Stacy has also engaged had already also engaged a real estate agent to generate purchase offers. And one conditional offer was provided for a combined purchase of our site and the adjacent site. Assuming that the price would be a portion based on a unit count, which is the logical assumption, our loan The price is valued at between $25,000,000 $27,000,000 for our parcel, which aligns with our current underwriting and obviously would result in a full recovery. Fortunately, Atrium has no additional loan exposure to the borrower. Speaker 100:16:14Defaults in the single family portfolio consisted of 14 loans totaling $8,600,000 However, 9 of those 14 loans are actually current with their mortgage payments and are only in technical default due to Realty Tax arrears. Overall, we're pleased with the resiliency of the portfolio. We analyze We increased Atrium's loan loss provision In Q1 by $952,000 to reflect the increased risk in real estate markets overall. The loan loss reserve The loan loss reserve continues to have no Stage 3 allocation, meaning no impaired loans. Turning to foreclosures, we continue to have 2 foreclosed properties, a 4plex in Leduc and the second is a 90 unit rental project in Regina. Speaker 100:17:16The Leduc balance is unchanged to $1,100,000 We believe that the $1,100,000 carrying cost for Leduc is appropriate as it is consistently 100% leased and generates between a 4% and a 4.5% yield. The Regina project Was also 100% leased throughout the quarter and we're passing through rent increases as leases are expiring. The carrying cost of the Regina is $13,200,000 which we believe is also representative of current value. The change in market conditions has been very positive over the last 12 months. We recently raised our rental rates by an average of 4.1% and we are meeting no resistance from tenants. Speaker 100:17:58The 2022 CMHC market survey for Regina was released in early 2023 and confirm that there was no dramatic improvement sorry, that there was a dramatic improvement in market conditions. We reported an overall vacancy rate in Regina up 3.2%, down from 7.1% last year and 7.5% in 2020. My economic commentary is as follows. The economic news in the Q1 was stronger than expected. However, real GDP growth Weakened each month. Speaker 100:18:36It was up 0.6% of 1% in January, 0.1% of 1% in February, and the preliminary estimate for March is a decline of 0.1% on an annualized basis. So growth in Q1 is estimated at 2.5%, but virtually all of that increase came in January. April looks to fall due to the federal workers' strike. RBC is still forecasting a mild GDP decline in Q2 and Q3. During the quarter, inflation kept dropping, ending the quarter at 4.3%, which compares to 6.3% at the end of last quarter. Speaker 100:19:16Much of the easing was explained by lower energy prices, which were lower than a year ago. The Bank of Canada's core inflation measures averaged 3.6% on an annualized basis over the last 3 months. The Bank of Canada expects inflation to drop to 3% by the middle of this year and 2% by the end of 2024. If such an improvement were to occur, We could expect short term rates to start dropping possibly towards the end of the year and certainly by the beginning of 2024. Turning to the commercial markets. Speaker 100:19:52According to CBRE, cap rates on commercial real estate rose by an average of 48, 49 basis points in 2022 and a further 10 basis points to 6.1% in the 1st quarter. Investors are mostly targeting high quality assets, while liquidity for Class B assets weakens. Industrial buildings and apartments remain steady. They are the 2 favorite sectors in the market with low vacancy rates and rental growth. Vancouver has cap rates in the industrial sector averaging 4.25%, while multifamily cap rates are in the 3% range. Speaker 100:20:31In Toronto, industrial cap rates were also in the 4 quarter range, while apartment cap rates are slightly higher than Vancouver at 3.5%. Not surprisingly, the largest increase in cap rates was in the office sector ranging from 4.5% The 5.75 percent for Class A downtown assets in Vancouver and Toronto. Cap rates are higher in both cities for suburban office assets. The national office vacancy rate reached a shocking 17.7% in Q1. Thankfully, Atrium has very limited exposure to the office sector, As we've always believed, it's a sector best suited for very well capitalized borrowers, including REITs and institutional investors, We can absorb the ups and downs of the market. Speaker 100:21:23Looking at the residential resale market, The news for resales in April was positive for both the GTA and Metro Vancouver. Resales in the GTA were 9.2% higher than March. April 23 sales were only 5.2% below April 22 sales. April 23 sales were only 5.2% below April 22 sales when the market was very active. The number of listings Increased by 1.6% on a month over month basis, but is still 38% lower on a year over year basis. Speaker 100:21:58The benchmark price was up 2.4% last month. It's down 12.1% year over year, but that's an improvement from 14.2% Speaker 200:22:09decline at Speaker 100:22:10the end of last quarter. In Metro Vancouver, there were 2741 resales in April, which was 16.5% below last year, but the housing market was peaking at that time. So these sales results do represent an improvement in the market conditions. And new listings were 4.2% below last year and 21% below the 10 year average. As a result, the benchmark price increased by 2.3% month over month and it's actually increased by 5% since the beginning of the year. Speaker 100:22:45Benchmark prices are now only 7.4% below last year. Turning to new home sales, the sales of new homes remained weak across the country. CMHC is forecasting that homebuilding Could drop by 19% in 2023. Due to a lack of new launches, new high rise sales in the GTA For Q1, dropped 77% from the peak of the market last year. Low rise sales also declined 63% from last year. Speaker 100:23:17The benchmark price for high rise and low rise product has fallen 10.8% and 2.1% respectively on a year over year basis. The supply of unsold high rise inventory is still reasonable at 14,500 units, of which 56 units are in the presale stage, so they may never get built. Of the 110,000 units currently under construction, 93% are pre sold and there are only 406 high rise units outstanding inventory. Similarly, the inventory of unsold low rise homes was modest at 1592 units. In Vancouver, new home sales are gradually improving. Speaker 100:24:02In Q4, sales were 33% higher than the previous quarter. On an annual basis, Metro Vancouver's sales We're just 7% below the 10 year average. Signs of a market rebound were most prominent in the South of Fraser region as 4th quarter sales were up 89% from the previous quarter. Only 6% of all concrete condominium units Scheduled to be complete by the end of 2023 remain unsold. Standing inventory Of completed move in ready units at the end of Q4 was 9 70 units. Speaker 100:24:41It's not surprising that the resale market Is improving faster than the new home market. The price gap between resales and new home prices had grown to a point where many investor buyers were not as keen to purchase pre construction units. I think we will need further price appreciation in the resale market before we begin to see a sustained recovery in the new home market. The key to a housing and commercial real estate recovery is a reduction in inflation and interest rates. Fortunately, 5 10 year bond yields have reduced to 3.07% and 2.9% respectively, which suggests that The bond market believes that inflation will continue to drop. Speaker 100:25:28I do believe that pricing growth in the resale markets in the GTA and Vancouver We'll accelerate once the cost of debt declines for the following three reasons. Number 1, the structural housing shortage in both cities cannot be remedied anytime soon. Number 2, immigration is at a record level and the federal government intends to increase the immigration target to 500,000 people annually by 2025. And number 3, the apartment and condominium rental markets just seem to continue to be exceptionally strong and keep increasing rents. To summarize, Q1 was another very good quarter for Atrium. Speaker 100:26:07The arrears level is still low with only 3 commercial loans in arrears. So the portfolio is showing resiliency in the face of weak market conditions. Our foreclosed assets are actually performing at their best levels ever, and I expect they will continue to perform well, notwithstanding soft economic conditions. We've been informed by Realtors that demand for multi residential assets in the Prairies is quickly increasing and we will look at selling these assets sometime over the next year or so. But the balance of 2023 will be challenging for the real estate industry as a whole. Speaker 100:26:43Today's high interest rates will continue to put pressure on real estate values and strain borrowers' abilities to service their debt. In my opinion, a drop in inflation and particularly in short term interest rates is by far the most important change needed to improve the real estate market. Until investors and developers feel assured that interest rates are beginning to decline, many will choose or be forced to stay on the sidelines. We are actively managing our existing portfolio to identify weaknesses early and deal with them expeditiously. The Stateview loan is a good example. Speaker 100:27:18The reason that our single loan to this borrower was publicized in the newspaper is because we took legal action before With 5 managing directors having more than 18 years of lending experience and 3 of us with more than 30 years of experience, we have the necessary experience to deal with economic slowdowns. However, the good news is we're also seeing an increase in the high quality lending opportunities. So I suspect that our loan portfolio We'll be higher at the end of Q2 than it is today. Thank you. We'd be pleased to take any questions from the listeners. Operator00:27:57Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll now conduct the question and answer session. Okay. Your first question comes from Raseem Baja from TD Securities. Please go ahead. Speaker 300:28:29Afternoon. Thank you. If I could start on Stateview. So I appreciate the comments you gave in your prepared remarks. Just a couple of questions here. Speaker 300:28:38To confirm, these are all development plans, so no construction has started against these mortgages? Speaker 100:28:45Yes, that's right. It's a townhouse site with, I guess, up to 84 townhouse units. Speaker 300:28:55Okay. And are these already in your Stage 2 loans? Speaker 100:29:01Yes. It's in the Stage 2 loan, yes. Speaker 300:29:04Okay. So if I could switch gears to your construction portfolio, I think you mentioned 6.8%. Are you able to share what sort of construction assets these are? Are these mainly multifamily properties or any other asset classes? Speaker 200:29:23I don't have it off the top of Speaker 100:29:25my head, but I think it's mostly multifamily Condominium, I think it's a variety, but it would be primarily those 2. Speaker 300:29:35Okay, Understood. And just my last question on the mortgage rate. Absent any unexpected interest rate hikes by the Bank of Canada this year, Would you say your mortgage rate has peaked around these levels? And is there actually even a potential for it to come down modestly as you target higher quality borrowers? Speaker 100:29:55Yes. I do think regardless like I'm not expecting Prime to come down until The very beginning of 2024 or the very end of 2023. But I think our rates have peaked and will come down slightly. And the reason is that if think about A situation where a loan is 18 months old. And so it was priced when prime was at 2.45% and say it was Priced at prime plus 5, as I mentioned to you, that was sort of our minimum rate when prime was that low. Speaker 100:30:32It was like an overall 7.5% rate. Well, that same loan is now over 11%. It's mispriced. So you have a choice of losing that loan. It'll probably get prepaid. Speaker 100:30:47And you may never see that client again, that developer client again, or you can adjust the pricing when you feel it's appropriate, and then retain that client for goodwill purposes. So one of our peers has already shown a drop in their average mortgage rate in this quarter. We didn't, But we expect that it could be slightly down. It's not going to be drastically, but it could be slightly down in the remaining quarters of 2023. Speaker 300:31:20Okay. Makes sense. As an extension, sorry, if I could just sneak in one more question. Your mix of floating rate mortgages, I believe you're 79% now. And back in 2021, I think you were high low 60s, if I remember. Speaker 300:31:39Do you see this mix changing towards the end of the year? And the reason I ask is because if all the forecasts about rate cuts in 24 come out to Speaker 100:31:46be true, would you look Speaker 300:31:47to reposition your portfolio more towards a fixed balance? Speaker 100:31:53So a borrower would generally prefer a fixed rate just because it creates certainty. But they're not going to be thrilled about a fixed rate today because they know that interest rates are very likely to come down in the next 6 months Or 8 months or whatever. So, we're still doing floating rates Because they see the potential of that rate coming down. So then the negotiation becomes what's the floor, okay? And up until this quarter, the floor was the current prime rate plus our spread. Speaker 100:32:31So we can only go up. We couldn't go down. But now it gets harder and harder as it becomes clearer and clearer when inflation is coming down, the rates are going to drop. So in some of our more recent loans, the floor might be slightly below where the prime plus Spread of the loan is today. Speaker 300:32:56Okay. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes, yes, I do. There is a bit more downside on the risk now that it flows slower because there is more visibility on interest rates coming back. Speaker 100:33:09Yes, that's right. Speaker 300:33:11Okay. Thanks for your time. Okay. Operator00:33:23Okay. There are no further questions at this time. I'll turn it back to Mr. Goodall for closing remarks. Speaker 100:33:29Okay. Thanks very much for calling in. I hope you're pleased with our results. I think that's our 3rd quarter in a row of record earnings. So we're very pleased with them and pleased with the way the portfolio has held up, continuing to hold up in the face of soft market conditions. Speaker 100:33:51So appreciate those of you who are shareholders supporting us and Have a good day. Thanks very much. Operator00:34:00Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference call for today. We thank you for participating and ask that you please disconnect your lines.Read morePowered by