Timbercreek Financial Q2 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
August 3, 2023

There are 7 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good day, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Timber Creek Financial Second Quarter Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in listen only mode. Following the presentation, we will conduct a question and answer session for analysts only. Analysts, you're asked to raise your hand to register for a question.

Operator

As a reminder, today's call is being recorded. I would now like to turn the meeting over to Blair Chamblin. Please go ahead.

Speaker 1

Thank you, operator. Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for joining us to discuss the Q2 financial results. As usual, I'm joined by Scott Rolland, CIO Tracy Johnston, CFO And Jeff McDade, Head of Canadian Originations and Global Syndications. It was another solid quarter financially with strong year over year

Operator

This meeting is being recorded.

Speaker 1

All right. It was another solid quarter financially with strong year over year increases in earnings and distributable cash. The highlights include net investment income of $31,500,000 which is up 22% from last year Adjusted net income of $17,000,000 which is up from $15,200,000 in the same period last year and a significant increase in distributable income, which reached $17,800,000 or $0.21 per share at a very comfortable payout ratio of 81.1 percent. As we commented on with our Q1 results, borrower demand has increased, Supported by a more active commercial real estate market, we should see this translate to healthy transaction levels in the coming quarters. Majority of the portfolio continues to perform well, which speaks to the emphasis on high quality income producing assets in the main urban centers across Canada.

Speaker 1

The strategy

Speaker 2

has served us well over

Speaker 1

the past 15 plus years through periods of economic and financial market turbulence. That said, in certain situations, borrowers are experiencing challenges in this environment. And this is reflected in the near term increase The level of Stage 2 and Stage 3 loans. Scott will provide additional color in his remarks. We've also expanded this discussion and our MD and A this quarter.

Speaker 1

The key takeaway is we remain confident in the quality and value of Dandelion assets and our ability to recover all of our principal. This remains a hands on process for the team and very much in our G and A as long time investment managers in this asset class. Strong cash generation and a low payout ratio, We're fundamentally well positioned to manage through a uniquely challenging period for certain borrowers and deliver on our core financial objectives. With that, I'll turn it over to Scott to discuss the portfolio trends and market conditions.

Speaker 2

Scott? Thanks, Blair, and good afternoon. Our quarterly results Once again showed strong year over year growth across key financial metrics as our portfolio continues to generate strong top line income at a low payout ratio. I'll quickly cover the portfolio metrics before commenting on the loans in Stage 2 and Stage 3 atquarterend. Looking at the portfolio of KPIs.

Speaker 2

At quarter end, 87.7% of our investments were in cash flowing properties compared with 89% at the end of Q1. Multi residential real estate assets, apartment buildings Continue to comprise the largest portion of the portfolio at 50.4% at quarter end with minimal change from Q1. Including loans on retirement assets, approximately 57% of the portfolio was in multifamily residential assets at quarter end. We continue to ensure the portfolio is conservatively positioned. 1st mortgages represent 91.4% of the portfolio consistent with 92% in Q1.

Speaker 2

Our weighted average LTV for Q2 was 68.3%, consistent with the prior quarter, which was 68.5%. And the portfolio's weighted average interest rate or where was 9.8%, up slightly from 9.7% in Q1. For context, the wear in Q2 last year was 7.2%. The year over year increase is due of course to the impact of Bank of Canada rate hikes on our floating rate loans, which represented 88 Our Q2 exit wear was 9.9%, up from 9.7% exiting Q1, reflecting the policy rate increase in June. After a less active first quarter, we saw an uptick in portfolio activity in Q2.

Speaker 2

We invested $108,000,000 in new mortgage investments and additional advances on existing mortgages. This was offset by net mortgage repayments And syndications of about $133,000,000 resulting in a decrease in the net value of the mortgage portfolio from Q1. The portfolio turnover ratio was higher at 11.6% and closer to the long term historical average compared with 8.4% in Q1. We are also seeing a pickup in our originations pipeline, which gives us confidence in the outlook for new transactions for the second half of the year. In terms of asset allocation, there were no material changes from Q1 with respect to geographic concentration.

Speaker 2

The vast majority of the portfolio It's tied to assets in urban markets in Ontario, Quebec, BC and Alberta. We are well established in all these regions and as a result continue to see In addition to our focus on income producing multifamily properties, We are also seeing diversification opportunities within industrial warehouse and land that is zoned for industrial or multifamily use. Bank lenders have receded from land creating an opportunity to invest in low LTV deals with stronger sponsors than typical. Conversely, we remain cautious on the office sector that is experiencing headwinds from the shift to work from home. Our office exposure represents only 8% of the portfolio and we continue to be comfortable with these current loans.

Speaker 2

Finally, given our shorter term loans turnover relatively quickly, we have the flexibility to respond to changing market conditions and invest opportunistically in a given region or asset type. Let me now spend some time on the Stage 2 and Stage 3 loans in the portfolio And where possible, provide additional transparency on the status and path to resolution for these loans. Our Stage 3 loans include the following: $17,900,000 in condo inventory. During Q2, we discharged $1,300,000 of this inventory with more units expected to close in Q3 and Q4. We are satisfied with the proceeds to date and expect to be materially out of this position by the end of 2024.

Speaker 2

We also continue to work on our exit plan for a medical office building in Ottawa. We recently engaged a new property manager with deep expertise in the market to complete a lease up strategy. In recent earnings calls, we've highlighted 2 assets owned by a sponsor group that filed for CCAA in Q4 2022. Both assets are attractively located in Montreal. 1 is a high quality income producing senior living facility And the other is a multifamily building that is currently under construction.

Speaker 2

In this instance, we expect a resolution to the court process this quarter and an eventual full recovery of our exposure. Lastly, a series of loans with 1 sponsor group were moved to Stage 3 from Stage 2 during the quarter. Together, this represents $143,000,000 in exposure on 7 High quality income producing multifamily assets. Along with a broader lender group, we successfully put a receiver in place to resolve these loans via sales process. Process is advancing well and we believe will be largely if not entirely resolved by the year end.

Speaker 2

Now in terms of Stage 2 assets, the balance sheet relates to an income producing multifamily loan in Edmonton. This loan matured in Q2 And an extension is being negotiated to provide the borrowers time to complete the sales process. The loan is current and we expect full repayment. To summarize on the Stage 2 and 3 loans, we remain confident in the underlying assets and our ability to get repaid. For certain borrowers, the increase in interest payments or other costs within their portfolios has added strain And it's leading to necessary recapitalization or disposition decisions.

Speaker 2

This is normal activity at this point in the interest rate cycle We are working closely with our borrowers as they go through this stage. For loans that do come under stress, there is a wide range of remedies available to lenders And rest assured, the Timber Creek team is experienced and focused on ensuring the best outcomes for our shareholders. At the same time, while the high rate environment creates some challenges, this is of course offset by record levels of portfolio income. They provided a significant cushion for TF. I will now pass the call over to Tracy to review the financial results.

Speaker 2

Tracy?

Speaker 3

Thanks, Scott, and good afternoon, everyone. You can find our full filings online, so I'll focus on the main highlights of the quarter. As Blair mentioned, we reported strong income growth for Q2. Net investment income on financial assets measured amortized costs was $31,500,000 up 22% from $25,800,000 in the prior year, reflecting significantly higher interest rates positively impacting the variable rate loans. Fair value gain and other income on financial assets measured at fair value through profit and loss decreased from a gain of $352,000 in Q2 2022 to a gain of $306,000 in Q2 2023.

Speaker 3

We reported a modest net rental loss from real estate properties of 2 $3,000 which relates to expenses at a marina on the lagoon city portfolio. You will recall that we acquired this from an equity This conversion completed last year. We intend on selling the land and have accordingly recorded as land inventory. Provisions for mortgage investment losses We're $900,000,000 for Q2 2023, dollars 3,000,000 in last Q2. The provisions are largely representative of future interest to be earned up until the anticipated time of disposition.

Speaker 3

As Scott said, we expect to recover the principal amounts all these loans. Lender fee income was $1,700,000 down from $2,100,000 in Q2 2022, reflecting lower originations in the period relative to last year. Q2 net income increased by 15% $16,900,000 compared to $4,700,000 in Q2 last year. And Q2 basic and diluted earnings per share were 0 point 2 zero dollars up from $0.17 in the prior year. After adjusting for net unrealized fair value gains and losses, Q2 adjusted net income was $17,000,000 compared to $15,200,000 in Q2 last year.

Speaker 3

Q2 basic and diluted earnings per share were $0.20 up from $0.18 in the prior year. We also reported strong growth And adjusted distributable income of $17,800,000 in Q2 2023, up 12% from the same period last year. On a per share basis, we reported DI of $0.21 up from $0.19 in the same quarter last year. The Q2 payout ratio on DI was very healthy at 81.1 percent, up slightly from Q1, but considerably lower than last year's Q2 of 91.3%. Turning now to the balance sheet highlights.

Speaker 3

The net value of the mortgage portfolio excluding syndications with $1,120,000,000 at the end of the quarter, a decrease of about $25,000,000 from the Q1 as repayments exceeded new investments in the period. The enhanced return portfolio decreased by 58.7 sorry, decreased to 58,700,000 from $68,200,000 at Q2 2022. The balance on the credit facility for mortgage investments was 361,000,000 at the end of Q2 2023 compared with $387,000,000 at the end of Q1 2023. Shareholders' increased modestly to $701,000,000 at quarter end up from $700,000,000 last year $699,000,000 at year end 2022. Under the normal course issuer bid program, we repurchased for cancellation 300,000 shares common shares this past quarter at an average price of $7.40 per share.

Speaker 3

We will continue to evaluate opportunities to use this program to acquire shares accretively. I will now turn the call back to Scott for closing comments.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Tracy. We remain broadly positive on the market environment the rest of 2023. Commercial real estate activity is picking up as both buyers and sellers adjust to the current interest rate environment. This should translate into increased activity within the Timber Creek portfolio. With a high percentage in floating rate loans, we will continue to see strong top line income supporting healthy distributable income, earnings and payout ratios.

Speaker 2

As we continue to make meaningful progress on the Stage 2 and 3 loans in the coming quarters, We will be in a position to evaluate opportunities for growth after exiting the previous ultra low rate environment. That completes our prepared remarks And we will now open the call to questions.

Operator

We will now take any analyst questions. Ram, your line is now open. Please go ahead.

Speaker 2

Hey, Graham. Yes, we hear you.

Speaker 4

Okay, great. I appreciate the disclosure you provided there on the incremental sort of Stage 3, Stage Two loans. That's very helpful. Could you maybe talk about, the loan to values associated with those For loans in particular in Stage 3 and then just any incremental color on Your confidence on these things being resolved without any associated credit losses?

Speaker 2

Yes. Let's go through that sort of one at a time, Graham, if you want. I think let's take a look at the Rosemont, the retirement asset and correct we talked about for a long time the CCAA Situation, we'll start there. So for this, we're working through the court process now and we're going to be we're essentially Credit bidding our asset. So from an LTV perspective, we probably believe we're in the I mean, it's hard to sort of estimate what that would be, right, because of the way the process is working out, but we would probably be in the 80s, I'm going to say, Graham.

Speaker 2

And for us, we're going to be taking control of that asset. And then we'll be looking to look to market for a 3rd party sale in the sort of coming Quarter or 2. The ultimate outcome for that loan, I think we certainly feel we're going to have our full position back and then we'll likely be in a Offering sort of a VTB type of position, I would think, with a 3rd party purchaser. When it comes to the loans, the sort of the larger group of assets that moved from Stage 2 to Stage 3, this is a larger sort of sales process and it involves A number of assets, some of ours and some are 3rd party, like nothing to do with us. These would also be loans we would say Probably in the again, loan to value in this environment is sometimes difficult to gauge, but probably in the Again, I would say in the 70s to 80s percentages, and we'll just have to see how the sales process happens.

Speaker 2

We're working collectively as a group on this, the single receiver in place, a broker is actually being hired imminently And we'll be in the market this fall. So we anticipate that that will get wrapped up. And certainly, we're going to we're anticipating getting our full P and I recovered there, Ideally by the end of the year. The condo inventory again, we're working that down sort of Loan by loan, we are recovering our position as we go.

Speaker 1

Unify Unit. Unify Unit. Yes, sorry, unit by unit. Yes, I just didn't.

Speaker 2

Yes, in one sorry, not my fault. In one it's one loan, one building. And then the medical office bill that we've talked about, we put in a new property manager. We believe there's actually considerable value to be unlocked here. And we may be doing a bit of an investment program.

Speaker 2

Again, this is a small loan, so it's not overly material, Maybe $1,000,000 or so in going further into the deal. Our loan balance is $8,700,000 and I think we can actually achieve A decent outcome on that one as well.

Speaker 4

Okay. That's helpful. So the loan to values that you're Quoting me there, is that sort of your estimate of perhaps a mark To market in the current environment and the current situation behind those mortgages and it not doesn't necessarily reflect What would be in, I guess, your I think you quoted 68% for your portfolio overall. Is that fair when you sort of give me a 70 to 80 on those situations?

Speaker 2

Well, that would be kind of what we're reflecting in our 68 gram on these assets, these are higher levered assets at this point as we sort of work through the process. With them, What does that result in what the final sort of purchase price will be? It's hard to tell because in these sort of lender selling processes, sometimes those proceeds, Final bids are lower than what you would accept in a sort of a one off market trade, but it's in that range. So if We were held at long term and it was our we were in control with our asset. There's probably more value attributed to it and what borrower might see in this type of a situation on the Actual net selling proceeds, but from a value perspective, that's mid 70s, low 80s, those are that would be reflected in what works out to that to the weighted average 68.

Speaker 2

Those are the values that are in there.

Speaker 4

Okay, understood. And what's reasonable in these situations when you go through receivership and whatnot at like a 5% to 10% discount on the price? Is that reasonable or could it be more than that? I

Speaker 2

would say because it's high quality assets like example of this larger portfolio Our newly built, like within the last sort of 5, 6 years, like mainly fully occupied multifamily assets At this count is a lot smaller than what you would it's not like we're trying to sell like Fashion Mall or an old office building, right? This is a high in demand product. So that discount could be anywhere from Paragram to be up maybe 5%, 10%. I would advise you to my expectations.

Speaker 5

Yes. This is Jeff here. I'd just add to that. I think that Scott just noted is absolutely correct. Obviously, Our values will also include The brokers as it relates to The high quality nature of the assets, the limited availability of this type of inventory at Gail, frankly, in any market across the country is expected to deliver strong, more typical market demand without Necessarily an expectation for a material discount tied to the receivership process itself, But obviously that's yes, to your point is it 5% to 10% discount potentially, it's going to be Market dependent, but we do think the portfolio itself and again the issue underlying the receivership process is not Asset specific, right.

Speaker 5

It is more broadly sponsor driven and broader external corporate capitalization issues that has Pushed our assets, otherwise high quality performing assets into this receivership process. But Again, good quality assets for which we expect to receive strong demand and market interest on the exit.

Speaker 1

Graham, it's Blair. I'll just add. I mean, obviously, LTV, as Scott's alluding to, is a bit tricky here, right? I mean, we're on a stabilized basis, assets, you can calculate an LTV Using a normalized valuation methodology, I mean, in this case, we're not really focused on the LTV, right? We're focused on recovering our Exposure and that's kind of it, right?

Speaker 1

So it's a bit different than when you're talking about You know the published 68% on the broader performing portfolio.

Speaker 4

No, that's fair. I just wanted to make sure that These assets were at 90%, 95% loan to value and all of a sudden going through receivables. Yes. So I get what you're asking.

Speaker 1

Yes, it's just

Speaker 4

Okay. So for

Speaker 2

us really the and Graham, just a final comment, Scott, again. Just for us, it's just the time of it, right? Like we sit there and I look at the portfolio. We had, as Jeff alluded to, there's a sponsor that had outsized debt within their portfolio like beyond us within their own equity stack. That's what created the distress for them, not the assets themselves.

Speaker 2

But us as the first mortgage lender, we just find we sort of find ourselves in these positions at this time in the cycle And we have to work through the court process and we have to go through sort of a selling process. So for us, it's we're confident in getting our recoveries here. It's just a time of working through the process. The nice thing is on this new one, it's been very coordinated. Our receiver went in almost immediately, And we're already talking about building the sort of sales process out.

Speaker 2

So hopefully, we can move through this quickly.

Speaker 1

And on that, actually, there's quite a bit of competition to get the listing. So I think you could extrapolate to that They believe that there's going to be strong demand for the assets, right?

Speaker 4

Okay. That's helpful. Good color. Can I just Jump to the provisioning side? So, it sounds to me like these are high quality assets and you're comfortable with the Marketability of them are the potential to resolve, but still if you take a step back, you've got, I think, roughly 20% of your portfolio sitting in stage 3.

Speaker 4

Perhaps you talk about why you didn't provision more on the PCL front This quarter, just given there's arguably some credit loss exposure here with your Stage 3s.

Speaker 3

Hi, Graham. It's Tracy and I can take that question. So, as you'd recall, so for the 2 assets Through CCAA, we would have taken a larger provision obviously in Q4, which still remains on the books. With respect to the portfolio that moved from Stage 2 to Stage 3, there is an additional approximate $500,000 that was taken on that portfolio. Again, just given kind of where the LTVs are and how we do our provisioning in With IFRS, we do continue to feel confident that following that methodology consistently and particularly with defaulted loans on a case by Case basis that we still do have adequate provisions and reserves on the books and just be mindful that the larger one was actually taken in Q4.

Speaker 3

It still Remains there, against the CCAA portfolio in particular. And in the Stage 2 loans that moved to Stage 3, We already had another $1,000,000 against those loans as of Q1. So we've added another $500,000 to those this And again, we do think that adequately covers our exposure there just given we expect to recover the principal.

Speaker 1

Grace, did you want to just clarify for Graeme on what we're provisioning?

Speaker 3

Yes. I mean, not to just go crazy Yes, not to go crazy into the math here, but the model such as it takes the value, the principal exposed and then what it does is it adds Forward looking interest, to the time of disposition. So at minimum, a year is applied. And then that It's really compared to the value of the asset. And as Scott said, we've looked at those carefully.

Speaker 3

So Really the provisioning math is kind of driven off of that forward looking interest in these cases because they're generally under 100% LTV, so you wouldn't really have a provision there outside of the interest. So again, it's We feel like we have enough coverage there and largely the math on that provisioning is really forward looking interest.

Speaker 4

Okay. Okay, understood. And then, if you've got a sizable portion of your book in Stage 3, I assume they're not paying interest right now, how should we think about The impact on your distributable cash flow in this sort of situation over the near term?

Speaker 3

Yes. So, with respect to the larger assets that is in CCAA, we've actually Haven't recorded the full interest receivable on that. What we've recorded since January 1 has actually just been the And similarly with the condo portfolio, we actually haven't recorded any interest In our top line income. So when you look at the DI there, that really truly is kind of reflective of the cash, the running cash yield that we're getting on these assets Currently, additionally, with the Stage 2 to Stage 3 assets, now that we've put the other portfolio of assets that are now into Stage 3, we now having put the receiver in place are in control of the assets and the cash associated with them. So we are receiving the NOIs on them now.

Speaker 3

They don't fully cover, but No, we're estimating that they cover about 50% of the interest to date.

Speaker 4

Okay. All right. That's very helpful.

Speaker 1

So that sorry, that payout ratio that we're talking about obviously is Using as a or a numerator the cash that is the net cash received, right?

Speaker 4

Yes. So the net cash being Yes, go ahead. Sorry. The net cash being received right now is factoring in What you're not getting from these roughly 20% of your portfolio?

Speaker 2

That stage 2.

Speaker 1

Right. It's not Yes, it's not 20% that is generating no income. As Tracy was saying, it's sort of case by case, but it is reflective of What we're receiving, not what we would notionally be receiving. So that's why, yes, we're happy to talk about The Stage 3 assets and working through those, but in spite of that, obviously, the cash flow that's being generated to cover the dividend is Substantial.

Speaker 4

Okay, great. That's it for me. Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Graham.

Speaker 3

Thanks, Graham.

Operator

Jamie, your line is open. Please go ahead.

Speaker 6

Yes, thanks. Good afternoon. Just a couple more questions on these Stage 3 loans. The $140,000,000 portfolio, the 7 loans, are they are these all like similar properties, like Some loans, dollars 20,000,000 and the way I understand it is you're the only lender on these loans. It's not like there's other lenders that have Those are, let's say, subordinated lenders in the capital stack.

Speaker 6

Did I understand that all correctly?

Speaker 1

So

Speaker 2

there's definitely similar assets and actually in the similar markets. It's a sort of Quebec City portfolio. And picture clusters of 4 or 5 buildings, they're together that are individual separate buildings and separate loans. So in our world, we control 7 of these Loans and we are more in all cases, but one where the we are the first mortgage, Jamie, We have one position where we have a small second mortgage, and that is a secured debt stock. And then there are other buildings with other loans with from other lenders like nothing to do with us.

Speaker 2

It's in a similar situation and it was the same board with the same sponsorship group. And so there's a coordinated effort amongst various lenders on how we go through this realization process. Each lender has their own security and our own cash flows Coming out of it, we're just for being efficient using a similar receiver and going through we believe it's more efficient and an opportunity to get a higher price By offering light buildings into the market.

Speaker 5

Yes. Hey, this is Jeff. Just to clarify a little bit further, so call it 5 projects. Each project has multiple phases. We've landed on a Phase or 2 within a project, let's say, there are other lenders on other phases within those projects.

Speaker 5

As Scott said, only one loan position is 2,500,000 second mortgage in one phase of one project with everything else in a first mortgage position. The assets are all recently built over the last handful of years. They are similar, albeit some catered to a slightly Higher end use tenant, some are so they do span across Slightly different price points. So there is some diversity as it relates to that as well as diversity in relation to location. So they are all exceptionally high quality, highly amenitized, well laid out and very marketable assets From our perspective and we do believe the opportunity to buy a project or the opportunity to buy multiple projects does create a broad base for Potential interest from other domestic buyers and or non Quebec and or non Canadian investors Through the sales process, which is in the process of being engaged and will be implemented fairly imminently.

Speaker 6

Okay. And a couple more on this. And are these just to remind me, are these like purpose built rentals or Yes, they are? Okay. And then And fully leased.

Speaker 6

Fully leased. Okay, perfect. And then your exposure is $140,000,000 What would be the total Project exposure, like how much does the sponsor need to sell, let's say, if they were to sell the entire portfolio in one shot?

Speaker 2

And beyond us, right? Like so the entire Beyond yours, yes, yes.

Speaker 6

Yours is 140. If you're one of 2 phases, is the entire ownership or property asset like 500,000,000

Speaker 2

Jeff and I are just looking at each other and $500,000,000 sounds about right.

Speaker 6

Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2

It's a bit of a guess from us. We don't have all the details, but like that is spot on, I think. Okay. And

Speaker 6

then forgive me for my ignorance here, like how many $500,000,000 Multifamily purpose built rental deals have there been in Quebec that you can kind of point to for evaluations Or expected Yes.

Speaker 2

No. Hey, listen, I think it's Quebec and beyond. I mean, there are lots of large multi Deals that trade and portfolios that trade, I can think of publicly listed companies as well as privates. Again, as we look at this, this is worth a bit of a unique situation, right? Like I think this is an extremely attractive product For some larger pension funds, especially ones who are looking to rebalance sort of away from office and go deeper into multifamily, This is a high quality portfolio where you can get scale day 1.

Speaker 2

So I think there is a large institutional interest that will come for this portfolio. And then separately, I also think going into more of the Montreal, Quebec City markets, there's absolutely Quebec local players that might be interested in picking up One cluster, the billings work independently. It's not like you can buy one building and that's a standalone working property. It's more efficient, I think, to have more and you'll be able to scale your infrastructure. So I think we get portfolio bids.

Speaker 5

But I mean, this This is

Speaker 2

early days and we're still in the process of hiring the broker and I'm not the broker who will be selling the portfolio. But I think there's a lot of liquidity for this particular product, Especially at this time in the cycle.

Speaker 1

Jamie, it's Blair. I'd just add that it wouldn't take you long to find statements From Scott's point, pension plans, in particular, 1 or 2 Quebec pension plans that have said they're looking for some Additional exposure in core multi res. So, nor U. S, Larger U. S.

Speaker 1

Players that are looking for additional exposure to the marketplace. It doesn't mean it's going to be a portfolio trade, but I mean it's a pretty As I said before, when Graham was asking these questions, like there's some competition for this listing. So,

Speaker 2

It's actually a nice size, right? It's not $5,000,000,000 and it's not $50,000,000 or $100,000,000 right? I think it's like $500,000,000 is going to attract a lot of attention.

Speaker 5

Right. And there's smaller individual projects within that broader, there's large individual projects. There's obviously The entire portfolio as a whole in that $500 plus 1,000,000 range, but it's also unique in terms of the quality, right, newly built, We built that scale. I mean, the opportunity to buy scale historically has meant 60s, 70s vintage older product, right? So This is a, again, a unique opportunity, obviously, for a variety of reasons.

Speaker 5

But the expectation is there will be broad based demand, And it can be carved up and looked at in

Speaker 2

a number of different ways.

Speaker 6

Okay. And the last Part of the question here is just there's non reimbursable legal fees. Would you expect any other non reimbursable fees to flow through on the sales process, like in addition to just These sort of run rate legal fees that we see here, whether it's commissions or something along those lines, or is this sort of like extra 600 ks Per quarter of fees, about the right run rate.

Speaker 2

Yes. I'll let Tracy answer it. Really, some of those fees are sort of more like legal fees consulting for As we work through how we legally going to go about making sure we're in court correctly and this is for all the assets And how we handle our processes and to make sure we're well represented at the table. So that really is it. The things that you're mentioning, things like commission structure, that's

Speaker 5

a real bill that will get paid to a broker, but that's

Speaker 2

it's not a non recoverable to the lenders, right? This That is all calculated and formulated when we come and say, hey, we think we're very comfortable that the net selling proceeds I will cover our position.

Speaker 5

Yes. And the only other thing I would add and going back to Blair's point about the demand to lift this project, It does result in and in light of the fact that the priority is on recovering the secured lenders positions across a number of lenders and projects, The fee structure within the brokers again has been aggressively bid and tied back to, hey, look, there is a Very, very nominal minimal well below market baseline fee tied to achieving a sales price that recovers the secured debt. And then thereafter, it's much more highly incentivized such that the borrower can or sorry, the broker can Earn a better fee for outperforming the recovery of the secured debt. So it's a more of a unique structure in that sense, but it does limit the cost Burden of the brokered sales process in this respect.

Speaker 4

Understood. And the only other

Speaker 1

thing I'd add Eric, it's Eric. And when you think about the process, I mean, this is a very different situation than if you had $500,000,000 of land, it was entitled that was worth a whole bunch more in somebody's mind 1.5 years or 2 years ago and now you don't really know what it's worth. I mean, this is cash flow in real estate, right? So it's a really And that's why we're comfortable, generally speaking. I'm not going to guarantee, obviously, we're this is going to be done in 4 or 5 months, but I mean it's a line of sight to this stuff getting sorted out

Operator

Since there are no further questions at this time, I'll turn the call over to Blair for final remarks.

Speaker 1

Great. Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to join us today. Obviously, lots to discuss And we appreciate the opportunity to go through with you and we'll look forward to regrouping again in 3 months. Enjoy the rest of your summer.

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Earnings Conference Call
Timbercreek Financial Q2 2023
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