Surgery Partners Q4 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
March 3, 2025
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Operator

Greetings. Welcome to Surgery Partners Inc. Fourth Quarter twenty twenty four Earnings Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation.

Operator

As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce Dave Dougherty, CFO. Thank you. You may begin.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Good morning. During this call, we will make forward looking statements. There are risk factors that could cause future results to be materially different from these statements that are described in this morning's press release and the reports we filed with the SEC, each of which are available on our corporate website. The company does not undertake any duty to update these forward looking statements. In addition, we reference certain financial measures that are non GAAP, which we believe can be useful in evaluating our performance.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We reconciled these measures to the most applicable GAAP measure in this morning's press release. With that, I will turn the call over to Eric Evans, our CEO. Eric?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Thank you, Dave. Good morning and thank you all for joining us today. My first comments will briefly highlight our fourth quarter results and the consistency of our long term growth algorithm. Then I will provide additional color on the strong business execution underpinning each of the three pillars of our growth algorithm: organic growth, margin improvement and deploying capital for M and A. I will also provide our initial outlook for 2025, including how our business is positioned in the current regulatory environment.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Starting with our fourth quarter results, I'm pleased to report that our team continues to deliver on our mission to enhance patient quality of life through partnership. The 2024 financial results that we announced this morning are a testament to the focus of our colleagues and physician partners who serve our communities with valuable, high quality and convenient care. This morning, we reported full year adjusted EBITDA growth of 16% and net revenue growth of 13.5% resulting in margin expansion of 30 basis points, each consistent with or exceeding our growth algorithm. This is the first time Surgery Partners has recorded revenue over $3,000,000,000 and adjusted EBITDA over $500,000,000 Our growth in 2024 is attributed to continued strong organic results including same facility revenue growth of 8% with equal contribution from both case volume and rate improvements, as well as meaningful contributions from our recent acquisitions. Dave will elaborate on our financial results next.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Across our 161 surgical facilities, we partner with top notch surgeons who consistently provide high quality clinical care. Our partnership model uniquely positions the company for sustained success because we partner with talented physicians to create a safe, convenient and cost efficient environment that patients and payers prefer. Increasingly, we are experiencing above average volume growth at higher acuity levels because we are focused on providing exceptional care and service and recruiting the right future physician partners. We continue to invest in Surgery Partners growth through acquisitions, facility expansions, de novos and service lines expansions as well as better, more efficient operations. The investments we made in 2024 will contribute to reliable and consistent growth as we enter 2025.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Let me touch on some of these initiatives starting with our continued robust organic growth activities. In the facilities that we consolidate, we performed over 656,000 surgical cases in 2024 compared to 605,000 cases in 2023. We experienced growth in each of our core specialties that exceeded our growth algorithm expectations. Importantly, we performed over 117,000 orthopedic cases in 2024, '11 percent more than 2023, reflecting our focus on growing this high acuity specialty through targeted recruiting, acquisitions and de novos. Most of the growth in orthopedic procedures is driven by total joint procedures, which grew 50% in 2024.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Notably, over 70% of our surgical facilities have the capability to perform higher acuity orthopedic procedures and forty one percent of our ASC is currently performed total joint procedures. This capability provides significant additional growth opportunity as we continue to position our assets to meet the expanding orthopedic demand we have been experiencing with targeted recruitment and investments in additional equipment, including robotics. In 2024, we added 14 surgical robots to our portfolio to enable our physician partners to perform increasingly more complex and higher acuity procedures. These investments also help support our strong physician recruiting process. We were pleased to conclude the year having added over seven fifty new physicians, many of which will eventually become partners.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

This recruiting class includes all our specialties, but skews towards orthopedic focused positions. Based on our experience with prior recruiting classes, we fully expect our 2024 recruits to more than double their impact in 2025. I also want to highlight our growing de novo capabilities. In 2024, we opened eight de novo facilities and we have 12 facilities in various stages in our pipeline, many of which we expect to open in 2025. As we have said before, we expect to have at least 10 de novos in development or under construction annually.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

These de novo investments are syndicated with well established and high quality physician partners that specialize in high growth areas such as total joint, spine and other high acuity services. We expect to see meaningful long term organic growth from our de novo ASP starting two years after they open. Next, I want to touch briefly on the second leg of our growth algorithm, our margin improvement efforts. Our 2024 adjusted EBITDA margins improved by 30 basis points over the prior year to 16.3%. This improvement reflects our procurement and operating efficiency initiatives that continue to improve from our increasing scale along with synergies achieved on our previously acquired facilities.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Given our structure, most of our revenue is generated by commercial payers. In 2024, approximately 90% of our revenue was commercial and Medicare. Our managed care team, which actively partners and negotiates with our health plans has already secured over 99% of our expected contractual rates for 2025. When combined with Medicare rate increases, which were approximately 3% for 2025, we have high confidence in and significant visibility to our expected 2025 rate growth. As we enter 2025, our teams are effectively executing on our key initiatives across business development, recruiting, managed care, procurement, revenue cycle and operations.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

As such, we continue to expect margin expansion in 2025 and beyond. The third and final leg of our long term growth algorithm is acquiring and integrating accretive surgical facilities into our platform. I'm immensely proud of our dedicated development team that manages and maintains a robust pipeline of attractive partnership opportunities. In 2024, we added seven surgical facilities focused on physician owned specialty surgical care and affiliated services. We deployed just under $400,000,000 of capital primarily on facilities that specialize in higher acuity specialties like orthopedics and spine.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

This level of acquisition activity was higher than normal, but reflects our disciplined approach to managing our pipeline. In 2024, we seized the opportunity to add strong and immediately accretive orthopedic assets to our portfolio. Acquisitions are an important part of our growth algorithm, not only because of the immediate earnings they contribute, but also the margin expansion we experience as we integrate these facilities into our platform. As previously shared, we expect to effectively take at least one turn off the acquisition multiple within the first eighteen months of ownership. Our record of successfully executing intentional disciplined acquisitions gives us confidence that we can continue to generate the same level of margin expansion.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

For example, the average multiple on acquisitions completed in the period from 2021 through 2023 was less than eight times adjusted EBITDA. After integrating these acquisitions, the average multiple decreased by 1.5 turns. As we look at our projections for 2025, we expect the annualization of the net partnerships we acquired in 2024 will contribute at least 3% of our projected growth. We also expect acquisitions will continue at a more normalized pace as our guidance assumes approximately $200,000,000 of capital deployment. So far in 2025, we have deployed $53,000,000 buying three ASPs in California and Texas with an average purchase price multiple of approximately eight times.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

The pipeline of attractive assets is robust and supportive of our 2025 guidance. And as Dave will discuss, we have sufficient liquidity to fund this growth in the short and long term without having to tap the capital markets. The level of activity supporting our comprehensive M and A strategy requires incremental variable costs in terms of due diligence, transaction costs, integration costs and de novo working capital investment. In 2024, our transaction and integration efforts were higher than typical, which is directly correlated to the increased number of acquisitions of de novo investments that took place in late twenty twenty three and throughout 2024. It is important to note that we expect these costs to be significantly lower in 2025 based on a more normalized volume of expected M and A.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Moving on to our 2025 guidance. Based on the recently completed 2025 budgeting process, we expect net revenue, adjusted EBITDA and margin growth in line with our long term growth algorithm. Specifically, we provided initial guidance for net revenue in the range of $3,300,000,000 to $3,450,000,000 and adjusted EBITDA in the range of $555,000,000 to $565,000,000 These ranges reflect our confidence in the core tenants of our business and strategy within the context of the current markets. With that in mind, I would like to provide our perspective on how Surgery Partners is positioned relative to today's legislative environment. The vast majority of our surgical volumes are elected and are referred from a physician office rather than originating from an emergency room.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

We see very few Medicaid patients and have virtually no uncompensated or charity care. This business model stands in stark contrast to traditional acute care hospitals, which provide inpatient and outpatient medical care for the treatment of a wide variety of medical conditions, injuries and illnesses with significantly higher levels of Medicaid, state based and self pay reimbursement due to their inherent higher emergent patient mix. Traditional acute care hospitals also typically own and equip facilities that are multiple times larger than our surgical facilities and provide care across nearly all medical and surgical specialties. Our surgical facilities in general are small and focused solely on delivering outstanding surgical care for a handful of service lines. This distinction is important to appreciate as our portfolio has significantly less exposure to policy shifts such as changes to Medicaid programs at the federal or state level or legislative considerations for Medicare site neutral payment policies.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

To put a fine point on this, less than 5% of our revenue is from Medicaid and associated state based programs. With respect to site neutrality policies, there are several frameworks that have been discussed, including the Lower Cost, More Transparency Act, the SIDE Act and a legislative framework released by Senators Bill Cassidy and Maggie Hassan. As a company, we are deeply committed to providing quality and compassionate care in the most cost effective environment. As such, we support efforts to encourage procedures to move to the best site of care, such as our short stay surgical facilities. Based on detailed reviews of all the frameworks we are tracking, we believe none individually or collectively will have a material impact on the company's net revenue or earnings.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

More specifically, there are very few procedures performed in our facilities that should be done in a lower cost site as contemplated in any of the current frameworks. Evaluating all the procedures we perform that could be impacted, the worst case scenario would be limited to 1% of our net revenue. It is more likely that if site neutrality legislation moves forward, our facilities will be the net beneficiary as procedures may transition faster from acute care health systems and their outpatient departments to facilities that we own and manage. To put it another way, we believe our facilities are the solution to the problem our government is trying to solve. Of course, the legislative processes are still in initial stages, but at this point, we do not see a material risk to our revenue or earnings from Medicaid policy changes or site neutrality legislation.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Before I turn it over to Dave, I would like to briefly address the non binding acquisition proposal that Bain Capital sent to our Board of Directors in late January. Bain has been a long standing investor in Surgery Partners and a valued partner to us over the years with representation on our Board. As we noted in our press release on January 28, our Board formed a special committee comprised of independent directors that are not affiliated with Bain Capital to consider this proposal with help from leading independent financial and legal advisors. Out of respect for the process underway with the special committee, our Executive Chairman, Wayne Devitt, who serves as Managing Director at Bain, has removed himself from many of his normal activities with Surgery Partners and as you may have noticed that includes this call today. We will not be commenting further on this matter unless or until there is a material update.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Overall, I am pleased with the consistent growth and progress our business recognized in 2024 because of our continued focus and execution against Surgery Partners' strategic growth goals. Our continued focus on maximizing the performance of our portfolio, robust M and A pipeline, steady improvements in enabling greater operational efficiencies and bullish outlook on surgical trends and the regulatory landscape have us positioned to continue delivering industry leading growth in 2025 and beyond. With that, I will now turn the call over to Dave to provide more color on our financial results as well as the 2025 outlook.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Thanks, Derek. Starting with the top line, we performed over 174,000 surgical cases in our consolidated facilities in the fourth quarter, bringing our full year case count to 657,000, eight point four percent higher than 2023. These cases spanned across all our specialties with an increasing focus on higher acuity procedures, which is reflected in our double digit growth in MSK related surgical cases. The combined case growth in higher acuity specialties, specific managed care actions and the continued impact of acquisitions supported our fourth quarter revenue growth of 17.5% over last year to $864,000,000 For the full year, revenue grew 13.5% to $3,100,000,000 Our same facility total revenue increased 5.6% in the fourth quarter and 8% in the full year, exceeding our growth algorithm target of 4% to 6%. Adjusted EBITDA was $163,800,000 for the fourth quarter giving us a margin of 18.9%.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

For the full year, we reported $508,200,000 in adjusted EBITDA, 16% over 2023 and in line with our expectations. We ended the quarter with $270,000,000 in cash. When combined with the available revolver capacity, we have over $770,000,000 in total liquidity. We reported operating cash flows of $300,000,000 in 2024, distributed $171,000,000 to our physician partners and incurred $45,000,000 in maintenance related capital expenditures. The increase in distributions and capital spend are correlated to the growth in our facilities and underlying earnings.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Operating cash flows in 2024 were higher than 2023, but lower than originally estimated due to the increased variable costs associated with acquisitions completed in 2024, the incremental interest costs on our revolver loan, working capital needed for recently opened de novo investments, costs related to a strategic alternatives process undertaken by our Board and restructuring costs we incurred related to key growth initiatives and operational efficiency. More specifically, we completed a higher volume of acquisitions that were also comparably higher in complexity of diligence and integration than prior year acquisitions. For example, some of the acquisitions included small separate physician practices that needed separate integration efforts. In addition, in 2024, we assumed management rights for four ASPs and launched four de novos with our health system partners, which required separate and intensive integration efforts to complete. This increased complexity combined with the higher overall volume of activity contributed to the higher costs we incurred in 2024.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We expect those costs to significantly abate in 2025 as we complete the integrations from 2024 acquisitions in the first half of twenty twenty five. We incurred approximately $11,000,000 in costs to support strategic alternatives considered by the Board in the second half of twenty twenty four and expect more costs in 2025 related to the special committee process Eric discussed, but we cannot provide an estimate for these costs at this point. Finally, as we continue to invest in improved corporate management support services for our facilities, we incurred restructuring costs in 2024 and expect to incur more such costs in 2025. We are comfortable with the company's underlying cash flow generation and its continued growth. Moving to the balance sheet.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We have $2,200,000,000 in outstanding corporate debt with no maturity dates until 02/1930. The effective interest rate on our corporate debt is fixed at approximately 6% through 03/31/2025. And after that, we have interest rate caps in place that limit the variable rate component of our $1,400,000,000 term loan to 5%. That floating rate is currently 4.3%, but that could change throughout the year. Our fourth quarter ratio of total net debt to EBITDA as calculated under our credit agreement was 3.7 times, 10 basis points lower than the third quarter.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We believe this is an appropriate metric to evaluate leverage as the impact of joint venture accounting could lead to incorrect conclusions. Having said that, this internal metric differs from leverage calculated using consolidated debt from our balance sheet divided by EBITDA, which results in a debt leverage of 4.5 times. Based on our annual operating budget and five year financial models, we expect leverage to decrease based on sustained double digit earnings growth. In addition, these models highlight that we will have sufficient liquidity from our cash on hand, our revolver capacity and cash generated from operations to support future M and A at levels that support our long term growth algorithm without having to access incremental capital from the debt or equity markets over the next five years. We are carrying the momentum of the strong finish to 2024 into 2025 with all our growth engines working effectively.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

As a result, our initial guidance for 2025 adjusted EBITDA is a range of $555,000,000 to $565,000,000 which reflects double digit growth over 2024 at the midpoint. Additionally, our 2025 revenue guidance is a range of $3,300,000,000 to $3,450,000,000 Organic growth from our same facilities is expected to provide growth at or near the top end of our long term growth algorithm target. We expect to deploy at least $200,000,000 of capital on M and A. We expect cash flows from operations to increase in 2025 based on our forecasted adjusted EBITDA growth, but we are not providing a specific range given the inherent variability and costs related to acquisitions, continued restructuring activities, the pace of growth in our de novo investments and the current strategic process underway with the Special Committee. We expect capital expenditures related to maintenance activities to be between $40,000,000 and $50,000,000 consistent with our historical run rate.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Distributions to our partners should grow in line with the underlying earnings growth. We feel that we have built a conservative outlook for 2025, subject to the timing of our capital deployment. Our guidance implies continued margin expansion in line with our long term growth algorithm, reflecting our ongoing and accretive progress in supply chain and revenue cycle, as well as the integration benefits from recent acquisitions and contributions from de novo as we expect to open this year. We have high confidence in these growth areas based on our historical experience and the compounding effect of activity that has already occurred in areas like physician recruiting and managed care contracting. Once again, our well established and proven growth algorithm is firing on all cylinders and enables the company to confidently guide to double digit adjusted EBITDA growth and margin expansion in 2025 and beyond.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

With that, I would like to turn the call back over to the operator for questions. Operator?

Operator

Thank Our first question is from Brian Tranquil with Jefferies. Please proceed.

Brian Tanquilut
Equity Research Analyst - Healthcare Services at Jefferies & Company Inc

Hey, good morning. Maybe Dave, just to follow-up on the color that you provided, you guys provided on the impact of potential legislation, specifically on site neutrality. Just curious if you can give us any more granularity on how you get to that 1% number? Or maybe ask differently, how are you thinking about the differences in impact between the ASC side, which is probably benign versus your short say specialty facilities?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Hey, Brian, let me just kick that off and then I'll let Dave get into some of the specifics. As I said in my comments, high level, our company is based on this idea of getting care to the right site and it's our mission to do that. We think it's the right answer for the healthcare system. And when we look at this, I want to reiterate in my comments, we gave the risk number on revenue, which is approximately 1% if you look at the worst case. But the reality of it is, there's a lot of upside for us gaining cases that will move out of the traditional acute care system.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

And so more than likely, we do expect this to be a net tailwind, just from our business standpoint. But I'll let Dave get into specifics. We obviously spent a lot of time going into details of what's been proposed so far. So Dave?

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes, thanks. And thanks for the question, Brian. So I'll reiterate what Eric said. This site neutrality is kind of core to our business, right? Supporting shifting procedures to the right side of care is our business model.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So we're in favor largely of site neutrality, pricing transparency and the current legislation and regulatory actions that are kind of out there. We think at best this is even though we looked at the downside risk at 1%, we think at best this is probably positive to the results and worst likely it's neutral to us for a number of reasons. But the way we've calculated just to be fully transparent, the way we've calculated this is looking at those procedures that are in scope and there's some very specific procedures in scope in the legislation that has been drafted or being discussed, the most detailed of which is the MedPAC proposal that forms the basis of the current act that those two senators are evaluating. The procedures that we have kind of in place to your point, a large majority of those procedures are occurring inside the larger surgical facilities. However, there are some of those procedures that are occurring inside the ASC.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So if you were to believe only the worst case scenario and assume no upside from procedures that are shifting out of the much higher cost acute care and their related outpatient business. Then you're going to see the exposure that we have at one percent. About two thirds of that would be in our larger facilities and about one third of that is going to be in our ASCs and that's really when you look at procedures that could be performed inside a physician office.

Brian Tanquilut
Equity Research Analyst - Healthcare Services at Jefferies & Company Inc

Got it. And then, Dave, maybe as we think about the guidance, appreciate all the color there, but obviously we're hearing a lot of noise around weather and the flu season impact in Q1. Just curious if there's any callout you want us to consider as we model Q1?

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

At this point, Brian, again, thank you for the question on the quarter. At this point, we're not seeing anything major. Of course, we did see those freezing conditions and some unusual weather patterns in January. But for the most part, our business just gets rescheduled. So when there are cases like that, there might be a little bit of fixed cost that will create some burden for us, but that has been factored into our guidance.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And as you look at guidance for the year, the way we have thought about revenue and adjusted earnings guidance throughout the year, the quarterly pattern will look roughly consistent than what we've seen in the past. Perhaps a little bit, we're a conservative bunch here. So I would suggest maybe 23% of our midpoint of our guide inside the first quarter, about 18.5% for adjusted earnings.

Brian Tanquilut
Equity Research Analyst - Healthcare Services at Jefferies & Company Inc

Awesome. Thank you.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

You got it.

Operator

Our next question is from Benjamin Rosby with JPMorgan Chase. Please proceed.

Benjamin Rossi
Benjamin Rossi
Equity Research Associate at JP Morgan

Hey, thanks for the question. So just on M and A cadence, you did over $400,000,000 in M and A in 2024 and you mentioned the $53,000,000 in spend so far in 2025. Just thinking with the offer letter in the public sphere, has this changed your approach to your M and A pipeline during 2025 and maybe the timeline of any of your conversations as this process works itself out?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Benjamin, thanks for the question. Actually, I would say that really hasn't been an impact. We tried I think we've done a good job of just focusing on the business. So there's obviously any kind of the process, there's a little bit of noise.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

But as far as the pipeline goes, you can see we executed we were very opportunistic last year, got some great assets that are highly orthopedic, high acuity, fast growth kind of facilities. We're proud of the team's work there. As I mentioned, as far as this year goes, nothing really has changed, really strong pipeline. You'll note we closed three facilities in Q1 already between California and Texas. It's been about $53,000,000 so kind of on pace with a really, really attractive pipeline.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

So no, I don't think that's had any impact on kind of how we're approaching that. We're just approaching it consistent with our long term growth algorithm.

Benjamin Rossi
Benjamin Rossi
Equity Research Associate at JP Morgan

Great. Thanks for the color. And then just on the de novos, sounds like those have been progressing nicely. Are you seeing any acceleration in ramp up under a more elevated demand setup and more normalized labor backdrop? And then how are you thinking about startup costs here in 2025 compared to some inflation we've seen in recent years?

Benjamin Rossi
Benjamin Rossi
Equity Research Associate at JP Morgan

Thanks.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Thanks for the question. We are really excited about our de novo pipeline and continue to gain additional traction there. It's hard to say whether that's because positions now see less inflationary backdrop and less labor pressure. I don't know, it could be part of it.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

But the reality of it is, it's as strong as it's been since I've been here. We've actually built out more capabilities in that space. And what we're seeing is they're incredibly accretive, right? So if we could do all de novos and put that to work and get them going faster, I mean, we'd love that. So you're going to see us continue to expand that.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

As we've mentioned, we've committed to 10 a year. As far as specific costs related to novos, I'll let Dave kind of dive into some of those details.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Thanks. Eric. And you're right, the costs associated with those on an upfront basis is relatively marginal. As Eric was just mentioning, the return on those things is remarkable.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

The working capital needs that sit inside there, you see that we pull those out, we disclose them in our press release. As we continue to ramp up to get to 10 in process every single year, you'll start to see that get to run rate. Again, assuming that we keep that pace at 10 times, but we'll keep pace with the demand and our capabilities. So I would expect that number to be roughly equivalent year over year. It'll start to get offset as facilities open up and they reach breakeven.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

They generally reach breakeven within the first year of ownership, sometimes within the first six months. So you'll see that start to normalize probably in 2026, just completely predictable on a year over year basis. You should see a little bit of that ramp up in this year, but not material.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

To add to your demand point though, I would just mention for total joints, it's really focused on orthopedics and these de novos. It's still three:one procedures in HOPDs versus the ASC world. So there's a long way to run there. So I do think as you think about high acuity new facilities, we're well positioned to be part of that answer on the de novo side.

Benjamin Rossi
Benjamin Rossi
Equity Research Associate at JP Morgan

Great. Thanks for the commentary there.

Operator

Our next question is from Joanna Gatluk with Bank of America. Please proceed.

Joanna Gajuk
Joanna Gajuk
Equity Research Analyst at Bank of America

Hi, good morning. This is Joanna Gatluk with Spirit. Thanks for taking the question. I guess one first follow-up. In the press release, you talk about $11,000,000 EBITDA from assets you divested at, I guess, in late Q4.

Joanna Gajuk
Joanna Gajuk
Equity Research Analyst at Bank of America

So how much revenues, I guess, those assets were contributing to 24 annually? And then why did you decide to sell and is there more?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. So I'll let Dave talk about specifics on the revenue side. What I would say is on those facilities, we're constantly doing a portfolio analysis, right? In a business like this, you want to make sure you're always the best natural owner. We had a few more this year than we would expect as a run rate.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

We do expect to grow our facility count quite rapidly over the next several years. But when we find markets where we're not as well positioned and we're not the best natural owner, we do try to find ways to move it out of those markets and into markets where we think there's better growth prospects. So a little bit unusually as far as the number of facilities, although they were small, not as well positioned as we'd like them to be and we've reinvested that into places where we think the growth prospects are stronger. Dave, I don't know if you want to comment on her specific question.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. The revenue impact of our divestitures is included in our guide. So if you look at the $3,300,000,000 to $3,450,000,000 less than 2% of that growth is going to be trying to jump over our divestiture related activity. The reason why we kind of pulled out the $11,000,000 is to help folks kind of understand how our growth is consistent with our long term growth algorithm yet again this year.

Joanna Gajuk
Joanna Gajuk
Equity Research Analyst at Bank of America

Great. That's very helpful. Thank you for the 2% there. And if I may, another follow-up on the comments you were making about the site neutral funds and your estimate there. I appreciate that the 1% of revenue, right, for I guess the worst case scenario, one of the versions that we know of right now.

Joanna Gajuk
Joanna Gajuk
Equity Research Analyst at Bank of America

How should we think about the impact to the bottom line? So I assume first of all there is too much because of the ownership structure, but is there something else to think about as you know kind of walk down the P and L, how this would impact the EBITDA line?

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes, sure. Let me address that. So first off, I appreciate why we're continuing to focus on this, but hopefully the point that we're making that 1% of revenue is not material to the company and there is upside to it. But it just I just want to make sure we're not over indexing on this. Even if you were to look at 1% and somehow say that's material, you're absolutely right.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

It would be affected by our ownership level plus any cost action that we take in order to kind of react to any type of reimbursement change. So it's going to negligible if anything. And I would argue the revenue piece is negligible as well. So I'm hopeful, Joanna, that that's what you take away from our call this morning.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Joanna, the one thing I would add on procedures as you think about this too is that we are constantly working to have the most appropriate procedures in the right places within our portfolio. So higher acuity in the highest acuity facilities we have, lower acuity in the appropriate ASC. So we're actively mitigating that number all the time. So we expect that number to shrink as every month goes by.

Joanna Gajuk
Joanna Gajuk
Equity Research Analyst at Bank of America

Great. Thanks for that additional call. Appreciate it.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Of course.

Operator

Our next question is from A. J. Rice with Credit Suisse. Please proceed.

A.J. Rice
A.J. Rice
Analyst at Credit Suisse Group

Hi, everybody. I don't know whether there's anything to be said here or not, but I understand you don't want to comment on the specifics of the ongoing special committee review. But is there any way to put a timeframe on when you might not the specific month or day necessarily, but are we talking about something over the next by midyear, by year end, any way to put parameters around that?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Hey, Jay, appreciate the question. Unfortunately, there's no more I can comment on that. It is one of those things where the independent committee will play this out and I can't comment further than what we've said so far.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Okay.

A.J. Rice
A.J. Rice
Analyst at Credit Suisse Group

I know this year in the past year, the back half of the year, the revenue per case moderated and case growth was strong. If you look at the full year number, you were more balanced on that. As you think about your build up for guidance for 2025, can you just comment on those two metrics and any inputs to those two metrics and how you think it will play out? I know you said you've got a lot of your 99% of your managed care contracts done. Do you have any sense of what the rate of increase on averages on those contracts?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Thanks for the question, AJ. Let me start high level and just say we talk about this a lot that we try not to we don't look at the business quarterly just because of all the various inputs and puts and takes of things rolling into in year, the seasonality. There's a whole bunch of things that happen. And that's why we do think the balanced year look is the right way to think about it.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

So last year very balanced between cases and growth, but it does move around quite a bit from quarter to quarter. And so we urge everyone to think about this business not on a quarterly basis when you look at those metrics because there's a lot of moving parts there. I'll let Dave kind of talk a little bit about kind of how he sees his seasonality playing out this year.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. And just to kind of pile on to that comment on the over indexing on one quarter over another, the impact that Eric was referring to is at prior year acquisitions or any divestitures. And if you have an acquisition that's focused on high number of cases that are at low acuity, for example, GI or ophthalmology acquisitions that we've done in the past or it's a heavy focus on orthopedic, it would be lower case volume and higher rates. As those matriculate into the same store calculation, they create some unusual variances. And the second part is, of course, the number of days in a quarter.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We only operate sixty business days. And so one day different because of holidays or where Mondays kind of fall, you could have some unusual variances. And so that's why we really do caution against looking at that on a quarterly basis. Having said that, A. J, we do look at that to try to explain it just to make sure that there's no underlying trend that's actually occurring to impact the organization.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So to answer your specific question, as we look at the quarters, again, we are going to say for the full year, we're going to be at or above our long term term range. We think it's going to be relatively balanced between case growth and rate growth. But the rate pressure that we saw in the second half of the year only due to mathematics will continue to occur perhaps to a more muted extent in the first half of this year and will balance out in the second half of the year. And I hope that's helpful.

A.J. Rice
A.J. Rice
Analyst at Credit Suisse Group

Yes, great. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Our next question is from Tawke with Macquarie. Please proceed.

Tao Qiu
Tao Qiu
Equity Research Analyst at Macquarie Group

Hey, thank you. Good morning. I was just trying to go back to the outlook that you gave. On the top line, you are forecasting 6% to 11% revenue growth. Based on earlier comments, we got 3% incremental from acquisitions.

Tao Qiu
Tao Qiu
Equity Research Analyst at Macquarie Group

There's a 2% drag from divestitures and a little bit of headwind from a leap year impact in 2024. I think I'm still missing some parts regarding to kind of the organic long term growth outlook like 4% to 6%. I think David mentioned it would be a little bit higher than that, but I think I'm still missing like 1% to 2%. Could you comment on where that's coming from?

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. So first off, our range is a pretty big range, which would imply growth year over year of 6% to 11%, pretty big range as you can look at that. And so elements of that are going to be the conservatism that we should look at. It's still very early in the year. There's a lot of the year to kind of go.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We've only closed the books on one month. So you're going to see elements of there and there. As you pointed out, we do have some pressure point, although it's marginal related to prior year divestiture activity. The most challenging part for you is not going to be the number of days inside the year. In fact, I think the number of surgical days inside the year is the same year over year or within one day.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So that's not going to be a pressure point for us. The biggest thing that's going to drive that is the type and the timing of acquisitions. Again, we've only completed three ASC transactions this year for a total of $50,000,000 or so. We have another $150,000,000 to hit our annual target, timing of that and the nature of those is going to depict where ultimately revenue is going to turn out. So we do look forward to updating that guidance as we get into our first quarter call.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

As a reminder, that's only a short number of weeks away from where we are today. So we should be able to give a better update as we go towards that.

Tao Qiu
Tao Qiu
Equity Research Analyst at Macquarie Group

Got you. Just a follow-up, I think the recruiting numbers are pretty strong this quarter. Could you comment on general SWMB trend? What's the labor environment looking like out there? Thanks.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yeah. Let me start with physician recruiting. Obviously, it was a really strong year for us again and that's been a strength of our company. It's a huge part of our organic growth story. And what we know is the physicians that we recruited this year record number, they are heavily orthopedic and we also know that they tend to double.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

They almost always double in the next year. So we expect to gain the benefits of that recruiting class maturing. We don't see that slowing down. We've got a really strong pipeline of physicians that we'll continue to bring into our facility. So yes, it's been quite good there.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Now that's separate and apart from our SWB on the books. And I'll let Dave maybe talk a little bit about SWB trends.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Andy, great question. I do agree with that victory lap on recruiting. That's an incredible team and incredible momentum. If you look at the past three years, just year after year, getting better in terms of the number of physicians brought into our fold and the revenue contributions from those.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So very, very encouraging. And as you know, they have a compounding effect. So the good news for 2025 is many of those stocks will just add more and more volume and more complexity into our business mix. So great, great outcome. On SWB, to put that point on that Eric was just mentioning, we believe we completely moderated the inflationary impact of underlying salary costs.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And you can see that in our results sequentially 180 basis points better. We look at SWB compared to revenue. We think that's the right way of kind of looking at that because our business is such a growth oriented business with new acquisitions coming into the fold. And when you look at that, we think we're in line with where we have historically been, which we believe is an illustration of how well we have managed that.

Operator

Our next question is from Andrew Mak with Barclays. Please proceed.

Andrew Mok
Andrew Mok
Director at Barclays

Hi, good morning. Maybe just a follow-up on that question around expenses. Revenue beat by more than 4% in the quarter, but EBITDA was in line. So we didn't see a lot of operating leverage in the business, at least in the fourth quarter. You talked about the higher level of integration costs, but most of those are adjusted out.

Andrew Mok
Andrew Mok
Director at Barclays

So can you help us understand what drove the higher level of operating cost across several expense lines, including the salaries, but also other OpEx and G and A? Are any of those increases temporary in nature? Thanks.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes, a little bit. Inside our and we talked about this on a quarterly basis, it becomes a particular challenge for us in the second half of the year between the third quarter and the fourth quarter and that relates to the accounting for the company's performance management incentive plans, in other words, the corporate bonus. So last year, if you may recall in 2023, we had to take some pressure off of that corporate bonus, but I'm pleased to say that we were able to kind of do much better this year. So that is acute inside the fourth quarter. It is fair again if you take a longer view of that.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So between third and fourth quarter you would have seen some slip, but for the balance of the year, that's a good run rate for you to use on a go forward basis. And quarter over quarter, you're going to have swings like this, but for the most part, it's there. I would say the other thing is a slight pressure that exists just on payer mix. It's difficult to predict kind of how that ultimately turns out. We don't see anything unusual in terms of trend from that perspective, but that would be the only other point as you're kind of looking at EBITDA pressure inside the quarter.

Andrew Mok
Andrew Mok
Director at Barclays

Great. And transaction and integration costs more than doubled from Q1 to Q4 and finished the year at $100,000,000 Clearly, that's weighing on free cash flow and now you're talking about a significant abatement in 2025. One, what level of visibility do you have into reducing those expenses at this point? And is it fair to think that free cash flow should improve by $50,000,000 to $100,000,000 as those costs abate? Thanks.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Great question. Let me start with your we have great visibility into it. And obviously, if you think about kind of where we expect that number to go because it was directly tied to our increase in M and A plus some transaction or some project or process related costs that Dave mentioned that will obviously naturally abate to hopefully this year. So we look at that and we would say that we expect that our run rate of below the line kind of M and A expenses will be similar to what was in 2023. Our expectation is we're going to manage that very, very closely.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

That will have a natural improvement on free cash flow, but I would also say that ultimately free cash was a little hard to predict because of timing of M and A and everything else that goes in there. But you're right in your thesis and we absolutely expect to drive that number down to more normalized levels. So with that, I'll let Dave maybe add a little bit more color.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. So and again, it's a great question. It's obviously very visible that we have incurred more expense in 2024 than what is typical for transactions. And I would provide just perhaps a little bit more color on what happened inside 2024. And we couldn't talk about this before, but clearly with Vane's letter that came in, you could see that there was a process that we went through last year that did burden that cost below the line.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

That's one of the difficult things that's difficult to predict because as you now know, we're going through a similar process that's going to have some costs. It's unclear how much those costs will be and kind of when that process will end. But that will that's an uncertainty that makes it difficult for you to kind of say definitively we're going to be able to take out $50,000,000 So not a lot of visibility that we can kind of see to that at this point sufficient to provide you with that guidance. On the transaction and integration costs, clearly we spent twice as much in M and A last year, dollars 400,000,000 out the door. It is a heavier due diligence burden, heavier transaction costs, right, the legal fees, the advisory fees that we use to kind of evaluate those and managing a pipeline those costs are always going to be there.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So you're going to see a direct correlation to how we manage the pipeline. And when it comes to that, at this point, we're not looking at anything major in the pipeline, so much so that we're saying 200,000,000 is our target for the year. So that should abate. And again, you're going to see a direct correlation to that. The integration side is where we probably saw a little bit more pressure inside the year.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And that's correlated to not only the number of facilities that we acquired, but also the relative complexity of those. So as you can imagine, and we use a lot of external resources, we're very intentional about integrating these facilities as fast as possible. It's difficult for us to avoid and for me in particular to avoid the opportunity of taking a turn to a turn and a half off of that asset. So I want to do that as fast as possible. So we deploy a lot of resources to make sure that we can kind of do that.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

In 2024, if you look at the construct of our acquisitions, they did include some things that are unusually complex. Key Whitman at the beginning of the year includes several physician practice offices to support the ASCs that form the nucleus of that deal. A physician practice each individual physician practice requires its own separate integration. There's a similar construct of our asset that we acquired up in Milwaukee that had several physician offices that also required separate integration efforts. And as you might recall in 2023, we took over some of the management of the ASCs owned by Intermountain Health through that health system partnership deal and we did some additional integrations with them in partnership as we acquired new ASCs in joint ownership with them.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Those represented some unique complexity for us as well. All of that complexity we believe is going to go away this year. And we'll revert back to a traditional pipeline of traditional ASCs and traditional de novo build. That's where we see the more significant reduction in integration costs. It's going to take us the first quarter going into the second quarter to complete all of those integrations.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

It roughly takes nine six to nine months for us to fully integrate those. And that's how we see the abatement happening more in the second half of the year. But again, the reason why we have difficulty predicting what this is, is because the M and A spend and the type of acquisitions can make that fluctuate. Our commitment to you is to always talk about those, talk about what drove those costs and to predict with as much as we can how that's going to change. So we do expect an abatement.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

It's just difficult to kind of give a specific number that sits behind it. We have a lot of visibility to this. As you can imagine, there's very few internal folks that we kind of look at this. Most of that is going to be contract spend for which we have great relationships with our external vendors and there's a direct variability associated with those.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes. And Tom, maybe we get to your underlying question too. Look, we're growing the business. We're growing we're generating strong cash flow regardless of timing of M and A. The expectation is we're going to grow cash flow with the business.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

We're going to be de levering in all circumstances over the next several years and we don't need any external help for funding our M and A. So, but appreciate the question.

Andrew Mok
Andrew Mok
Director at Barclays

Thanks for all the color. If I could sneak in one more, there was a change in the valuation allowance for deferred tax assets of $100,000,000 in the quarter, which exceeds the total DTA on the balance sheet at 3Q. Can you help us understand what's going on there and the drivers of the change in the valuation allowance? Thanks.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. So first off, a great question. I'm glad that you brought that up because it can be easily misinterpreted. We're falling into the trap of a very technical accounting standard that requires us to recognize this. But I want to be very clear, nothing has changed in our underlying growth story and our cash tax position remains unchanged and where we think we're going to utilize the NOLs that sit on our balance sheet.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Those NOLs we predict will be used to help offset cash tax payments until we get to the end of the decade. The is a way of kind of evidencing that over the past two years, we have averaged 2,000,000 a year in cash taxes. We have no federal cash tax payments in those periods. Those are all related to very specific state tax utilization issues. The technical accounting, I won't bore you with it, but it has something to do with how GAAP accounting triggers losses and what that does to a requirement to recognize evaluation allowance.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

It's something that occurs if you have a trended GAAP loss and the GAAP loss that you would see on an income tax valuation basis would have been impacted by somewhat unique items, the divestitures and the losses associated with those, the debt extinguishment as we did a lot to right size our financing, which I'm very proud of, and our derivatives, and the way the accounting for those works through that kind of innocuous statement of accumulated losses in our consolidated results. So you can get pretty sleepy kind of going through this example, but the big takeaway behind this is it's a pure accounting regulation that was required to be reported inside the fourth quarter just because we tripped that accounting standard, but nothing changes in our underlying business.

Andrew Mok
Andrew Mok
Director at Barclays

Great. Thanks for the color.

Operator

Our next question is from Matthew Gillmer with KeyBanc Capital Markets. Please proceed.

Matthew Gillmor
Matthew Gillmor
Director & Senior Research Aanalyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets

Hey, thanks for the question. I wanted to circle back on the site neutral topic and I appreciate the analysis you shared today. That's really helpful. I was curious if you thought there'd be any positive downstream impact on your development efforts. And I guess I was thinking of more hospitals looking for JV partners or even just physicians looking for ASC partners to make sure they get OR time as hospitals have to shift around their priorities.

Matthew Gillmor
Matthew Gillmor
Director & Senior Research Aanalyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets

But just any curious or any thoughts on how development could be impacted by SiteNeutral?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Yes, thanks. It's a great question. Look, I would say regardless of SiteNeutral, we have a really extensive pipeline and continue to see great opportunities. But I would agree with you that anything that puts pressure on getting patients to the right place and actually drives that is going to drive interest from health systems. We do get a lot of calls from health systems.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

We're very picky on the ones we partner with because we want to move fast and we want to make sure that they're fully committed to this kind of movement. But we have seen certainly a lot of interest from them. I think that will only grow with site neutrality. And from a physician perspective, I think this will force more discussions of docs that are going to be open and looking to find a surgery center home. So yes, I think it helps what's already a very strong pipeline.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

So we think that's all good. And again, it comes down to it's the core of what we do. Part of what we believe in as a company is we can say we're part of the solution for the healthcare system. We can save a tremendous amount of money while providing a great product by moving patients to where they need to be for care, right place, right cost, right time.

Matthew Gillmor
Matthew Gillmor
Director & Senior Research Aanalyst at KeyBanc Capital Markets

That's great. I'll leave it there. Thank you.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question is from Whit Mayo with SVB Leerink. Please proceed.

Whit Mayo
Senior Managing Director at Leerink Partners

Hey, good morning. Eric, just quick clarification. You said Medicaid's 5% of revenue, not supplemental payments are 5%, correct?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

No, I said all of Medicaid and state funding is less than 5%. So in total, everything including any state based funding that comes.

Whit Mayo
Senior Managing Director at Leerink Partners

Would you be willing to size the state based funding?

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Within that less than 5%? What I would say is in total, it's not that material. But I don't know that we've ever sized that. I think the majority is probably straight Medicaid.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Clearly, a majority is going to be straight Medicaid. And I think you guys know enough about what state based reimbursement

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

kind of

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

looks like. It is for us fairly predictable and not material, especially as you think about how that revenue flows through to the bottom line. State based reimbursements can be affected by timing clearly, but is neutralized to some extent by the provider tax that some states kind of put on this, as well as our non controlling interest piece of that. So as you kind of flow through the risk that you're alluding to Whit, it's really marginal on the bottom line perspective. Overall, we do not consider state based reimbursements changes in there or changes in the Medicaid to be a material headwind or even a significant headwind for us.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

To be very clear, we're tracking everything that happens on a state base as well as at the federal level. This is not a headwind for us because of the nature of our business being primarily elected and primarily referred to from physician office.

Whit Mayo
Senior Managing Director at Leerink Partners

That's perfect. Obviously, we've gotten a lot of questions on that over the last few days, so that's helpful. And maybe just my follow-up. Eric, just wondering sort of where we are on the revenue cycle, the implementation, where we are on the standardization of those processes and maybe also just procurement. We've heard you talk about this for a couple of years.

Whit Mayo
Senior Managing Director at Leerink Partners

And so I'm just wondering if these are still incremental opportunities. I'm sure plenty there's probably plenty of variation down at the performance at the center level. So just any color would be helpful. Thanks.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

That's a great question. I'll start off high level and I'll let Dave get into some of the specifics as he's over those areas. I think you think about revenue cycle, it's always I think for everyone an ongoing opportunity to mature those processes. We're still in the early innings there. We see lots of opportunity in our revenue cycle.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

And so if you think about our growth algorithm, that middle 3% to 5% of just making our operating system better, long way to run-in revenue cycle. So supply chain, look, we have an excellent supply chain group here that works closely with our GPO. We continue to find opportunities there, continue to see that place as a place that's maturing. And then we have other opportunities as we go forward around clinical variation that we're excited to get started on. But there's a bunch of things with that that make us give us a lot of confidence that we're going to be able to continue to drive those kind of benefits to our business.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

But I'll let Dave go into some specifics on revenue cycle and procurement.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Thank you. So let me just start kind of with the kind of the why the underlying your question is like how long can you continue to get the benefits that kind of sit behind there? And if you've talked about that so much for the past couple of years, is it drying up? It is not.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And I'll tell you the reason why. It starts with the company's kind of history of all of the roll ups that we've done. We've spent the first several years at the latter part of last decade rolling up all of those into common systems that were behind the scenes. Behind the scenes gives us better data. Now we've moved into the cycle of moving to common processes and aligning all of our people.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

That takes a while with 180 facilities across our portfolio to make sure that we hit that the right way. That cycle we're in early innings on for both procurement and for revenue cycle. But as Eric mentioned, very, very pleased. I'm going to give you a couple of data points. Revenue cycle, DSO has improved three days quarter over quarter.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And as you might remember in the third quarter, we talked about a little bit of pressure coming from managed care. We had seen increased denials and increased aggressive policies being implemented by the payers that are out there. It's our job to react to those. And as you could tell in the fourth quarter with those types of numbers we did. As a primary elective company, we have a lot of visibility to schedule cases.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

There's plenty of time for us to kind of navigate through any medical necessity requirements and make sure we get the documentations there. We've also seen denials kind of pick up and denials at lower dollar cost levels, which perhaps the payers thought that you're not going to chase after those. We chase after every dollar. And so you see investments on the front end and on the back end. That will continue as we continue to bring more of our facilities under one common process.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

And on the procurement, I'll give you just one other data point that hasn't come up today, which kind of surprises me, but the tariffs that have been discussed and threatened kind of out there on a global scale and then more specifically in a couple of the countries that we source from, we believe the procurement team, I couldn't be more proud of them, they have navigated through and given us great visibility as to where those specific exposure areas are. Those have been factored into the worst case scenario has been factored into our guidance for 2025. We believe the exposure that we have there is around 1%. I mean, that's simply incredible for the types of tariffs that they're talking about out there. But that's a from a cost basis, we think we're in control there and we have greater flexibility because we operate this business in partnership with physicians who have an economic interest in navigating through.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

So where change can be necessary, we can deploy those. I think we've got a long runway several more years, and that benefit will always be there because we're acquiring companies that are largely less mature or don't benefit from the scale that which we provide. So So it will be an ongoing source of margin enhancement for the length of time that's covered by our long term growth algorithm. Thanks for the question, Whit. Thanks.

Operator

Our last question is from Sarah James with Cantor Fitzgerald. Please proceed.

Sarah James
Managing Director & Equity Analyst - Healthcare Services & HCIT at Cantor Fitzgerald

Thank you. A few years ago, you set a goal of net debt to EBITDA in the mid-3s in 2025 and you've been just above that range in 2024. How should we think about how high that metric could temporarily stretch as you fund growth and is a goal of mid-3s in 2025 and beyond still valid? Thanks.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

Hey, Sarah, thanks for the question. Obviously, we've talked a lot about being focused on deleveraging the company and we see that in our five year model very specifically as we continue to grow. You're right that there could be pressures when you have kind of like last year, we had $400,000,000 of M and A. Could be short term pressures on that number. But we do expect in our planning horizon, our goal is three.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

We're going to continue to march towards that delever as we grow. And we do expect to hit that. But I'll let Dave talk about kind of short term pressures that you could see in the interim just based on timing of M and A.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

Yes. Great question. Thanks, Sarah. I know that there's an area of focus on leverage. So again, the big takeaway that everybody should hear when we talk about leverage and cash flows is that there is no headwind that sits in front of us that suggests that our long term growth algorithm has to change.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

We will always anticipate 4% to 6% of our growth will come from M and A. That implies a $200,000,000 deployed a year. And again, the takeaway is during this five year window, which we beat up our five year model, there is no need for us to enter the capital markets. And since we've done everything that we've done on our balance sheet to avoid exposure to interest rates, we do not believe that we have any such exposure in our capital markets decision or in our cash flow generation as we go throughout the year. Specific to 2025, we do anticipate that the credit agreement leverage or any leverage that you kind of look at will continue to show downward trajectories It may tick up just inside the first quarter related to the recent acquisitions.

Dave Doherty
Dave Doherty
EVP & CFO at Surgery Partners

That's that unusual pressure that kind of sits inside that number. But we'll continue its downward trajectory as we go through '25 and will mid-3s and better as we continue to go down during that five year window. Thanks for that question, Sarah.

Eric Evans
Eric Evans
CEO at Surgery Partners

All right. Before we conclude today, I want to say thank you to my colleagues and our physician partners who collaborate each and every day to deliver on our mission to enhance patient quality of life through partnership. Thank you for joining our call this morning and have a great day.

Operator

Thank you. This will conclude today's conference. You may

Operator

participation.

Executives
    • Dave Doherty
      Dave Doherty
      EVP & CFO
    • Eric Evans
      Eric Evans
      CEO
Analysts
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Earnings Conference Call
Surgery Partners Q4 2024
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