Las Vegas Sands Q3 2021 Earnings Call Transcript

Participants

Corporate Executives

• Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations
• Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
• Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China
• Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer
• Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China

Analysts

• Carlo Santarelli, Deutsche Bank Aktiengesellschaft
• Stephen Grambling, The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
• Joseph Greff, J.P. Morgan
• Robin Farley, UBS Group AG
• Shaun Kelley, Bank of America Merrill Lynch
• Benjamin Chaiken, Credit Suisse Group AG
• Daniel Politzer, Wells Fargo & Company
• Steven Wieczynski, Stifel Nicolaus
• David Katz, Jefferies Financial Group Inc.

Presentation

[Operator]

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to Las Vegas Sands' Third Quarter 2021 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]

Thank you. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today, Mr. Dan Briggs. Sir, the floor is yours.

[Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Las Vegas Sands]

Thank you, operator. Joining me on the call today are Rob Goldstein, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; and Patrick Dumont, our President and Chief Operating Officer. Also joining us on the call are Dr. Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China; and Grant Chum, Chief Operating Officer of Sands China.

Before I turn the call over to Rob, please let me remind you that today's conference call will contain forward-looking statements that we are making under the Safe Harbor provision of federal securities laws. The company's actual results could differ materially from the anticipated results in those forward-looking statements. In addition, we may discuss non-GAAP measures. A definition and a reconciliation of each of these measures to the most comparable GAAP financial measures is included in the press release. Please note that we have posted supplementary earnings slides on our Investor Relations website. We may refer to those slides during the Q&A portion of the call. Finally, for those who would like to participate in Q&A session, we ask that you please respect our request to limit yourself to one question and one follow-up, so we might allow everyone with interest the opportunity to participate. Please note that this presentation is being recorded.

With that, let me please turn the call over to Rob.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Thanks, Dan. Good afternoon, and good morning to our colleagues in Asia, and thank you for joining our call today. I'll provide some brief comments, and we'll go to the Q&A. Our results continue to reflect the pandemic's impact, heightened restrictions directly impacted our results in both Macau and Singapore this quarter. We did generate positive EBITDA for the quarter in both markets. We remain confident in the eventual recovery in both Macau and Singapore.

Singapore gaming operations were closed for a portion of the quarter, enhanced restrictions were in place throughout the remainder of the quarter. The good news in Singapore, is that travel corridors are being established with a number of source markets, which hopefully will contribute to the strong recovery over time. Our considerable investments in Macau continue to take shape. As the market recovers, we believe that Four Seasons in London will present growth opportunities in the future.

The spending in Macau has proven both resilient at premium mass level from both a gaming and a retail perspective, you see on page 29 and 30 in your deck, and we have great optimism about our ability to perform to a pre-pandemic level, once visitation does return.

Our company is divided into three areas. Most importantly, the Asia portfolio in Macau and Singapore. We remain confident we'll return to a strong positive cash flow in both Macau and Singapore in the future, as restrictions are eased and travel and tourism recover.

The sale of our Las Vegas assets create liquidity and optionality, as we pursue large-scale land-based destination resorts in both the U.S. and Asia. We will continue to build out our digital presence and we're exploring multiple opportunities. We'll update you at the appropriate time in the future.

So, thanks for your time again today. Let's go to the questions. Dan?

[Daniel Briggs, Senior Vice President of Investor Relations at Las Vegas Sands]

Operator, ready to go.

Questions and Answers

[Operator]

[Operator Instructions] Your first question is coming from the line of Carlo Santarelli from Deutsche Bank. Your line is open.

[Carlo Santarelli, Analyst at Deutsche Bank Aktiengesellschaft]

Hey, everybody. I hope everyone is well. Rob, obviously, I'm not going to spend a lot of time discussing the results, as we all know that there are numerous things impacting results right now. But Rob, when you think about kind of the progress as it pertains to Macau, and what you're kind of hearing around potential easing of visa stuff, whether it's on a province-by-province basis, or whatever the latest is, that you could kind of share, would be appreciated.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. We woke up two guys, and it would be nice to let them speak to it. So Grant or Wilfred, why don't you take that, since you're on the ground and living and breathing these issues every day?

[Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah, let me give that a try. Yeah. Thanks, Rob. Yeah, on the visas, I think the main point is the visa channels for the individual business scheme remains open. I think if you look at the quarter -- in the third quarter, what really impacted results during the quarter, month by month, is really the conditions on the ground in terms of domestic COVID cases. So you will see that in July, we had at one point, for about three weeks in July, we had a pretty significant recovery in the visitation and also room occupancy and we were starting to get a good momentum for the summer, after the issues we had in the Guangdong outbreak in June.

And then as we moved into late July and early August, we had more local cases, starting with the Nanjing airport outbreak. And eventually, in early August, we did have four local cases. So that obviously curtailed the traffic immediately. And then as we moved into September, again, we were recovering well, especially in the second and third week of September. And we were building up ready for the October Golden Week again. And unfortunately, we did have some local cases towards the last week of September, which again, reduced the traffic immediately, as it led to additional restrictions around the border. So that really explains how the traffic flow evolved during the quarter.

[Carlo Santarelli, Analyst at Deutsche Bank Aktiengesellschaft]

Great. Thank you. That's helpful. And then just as a quick follow-up, Rob, you guys did disclose, and I think this is different from how you've disclosed historically around capital expenditures in the period. The one line in there was $24 million of corporate and other. Does that -- what exactly does that pertain to, and does that have anything to do with the comments that you made on kind of the digital piece of the business?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Pat, do you want to take that?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. I think there's a bunch of stuff in there. Some of the stuff related to digital, but some of it relates to capex associated with moving.

[Carlo Santarelli, Analyst at Deutsche Bank Aktiengesellschaft]

Got it. And could you kind of just update your latest thoughts on the learnings over the last couple of months, quarter, as it pertains to kind of the digital initiative to any degree, Patrick?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah, sure. Happy to do it. I think for us, we take a very long-term approach. We mentioned it last quarter. I think this is something that's going to invest over quarters and years. We're really investing for the future. I think for us, we're looking to be sort of mindful of the way we deploy capital. We've always had a history of investing in things that we think provide a very high level of returns in the future. And that's how we're thinking about it today. We think there's a great opportunity in digital, in a variety of different areas. You can use some of the valuations that the market is giving to certain areas today.

We think it's very compelling, especially for the long term. So right now, we're just sort of moving along slowly and when we have more things to report we will, as Rob said in his opening remarks. But we're very confident. We have capital to deploy against it. We're excited about the future, and when we have more things to talk about, we certainly will. But right now, it's very early stages.

[Carlo Santarelli, Analyst at Deutsche Bank Aktiengesellschaft]

Understood. Thank you, guys.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Thank you, Carlo.

[Operator]

Thank you. Your next question is from the line of Stephen Grambling from Goldman Sachs. Your line is open.

[Stephen Grambling, Analyst at The Goldman Sachs Group]

Hey, thank you. Maybe changing gears to look at Singapore. It looks like that market was also obviously impacted in the quarter. VIP, particularly soft. If we look out further, once restrictions ease, I guess how do you think about the potential EBITDA potential of that asset, if VIP in Macau remains pressured? In other words, what kind of overlap do you typically see in Singapore from the Chinese traveler. And could that be impacted, if VIP is kind of permanently restricted?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Yeah. First of all, I think the fascinating part to me, is we operate in three markets currently and Las Vegas is the blueprint, I think for the recovery of Asia. We said about a year ago, when I was coming to work and someone told me, here in Las Vegas, we wouldn't see normal returns here until revenues, so '24, '25. So here we are in the fall of '21, and the market is blown wide open. And what's the path? The path is pent-up demand, vaccinations, and doors get opened. And I think Las Vegas will be the blueprint for Asia. That's the path.

So vaccinations in Asia are booming, if you can look at what's happening in Singapore and Malaysia, Japan, China, Korea, it's all above the percentage-wise, what's happened [Phonetic] in the U.S. So first, we have extremely strong vaccination rates in Asia surpassing the U.S. Number two, I think you've got to obviously have a government that wants to open the doors in Singapore, that is evidenced by their actions, they wanted just that. I think you're going to see a big turn in '22. The recovery will begin in '22. When do we get back to 1.7 and maybe beyond that in EBITDA, I don't know.

The exact date, I can't tell you. I can tell you this. It's going to be a lot better in '22, if the government continues their path, which has shown a lot of leadership, thoughtfulness, vaccination rates I think are actually approaching 80%-plus. The market over there feels it's ready to come back in '22, as the government opens those travel lanes and we look at -- again, the demand issues here in Las Vegas have been, I think, very instructive. It's great to walk through here and see the numbers that's kicking out through the entire city. Why wouldn't that happen in Asia? Singapore has been a hugely important market to us.

Your point about Macau versus the Chinese market. Obviously, part of our business is dependent upon access to Chinese market, but it's not dependent [Phonetic]. We probably could still make a lot of money, maybe as much as $1.5 billion without a lot of Chinese input. So if Korea opens up, and Singapore opens up, Malaysia opens up, and Korea and Japan, those markets are very, very sad and happy for us. And I believe we'll see them start opening up throughout '22. That's the path. It's a vaccination rate, which is soaring. It has opened traveling. It's opening the doors up and then watching what's happened in Vegas, happened in Singapore and I feel -- I don't want to identify a month or a quarter, but I think you're going to see a nice turn in '22. And then the same will happen in Macau when the government decides to open those doors up.

So, I know there's people -- I have people will say it's 25 to Macau [Indecipherable] 27. But the truth is Vegas is just about 30 minutes. Once we open doors up, it just recovers and it's a gaming base recovery, it's not a convention banquet-based recovery actually yet to come. So, I think the future in Vegas remains, as we've always said, very bright, and there's no reason why it can't be emulated in both Singapore and Macau, as vaccination rates take off and governments get more confident and travel lanes reopen. So we're highly confident it's going to happen in Singapore in '22. To what degree, I won't predict, but it's just a question of time for LVS goes right back to where it was pre-COVID. It's just inevitable. So, we're very confident.

[Stephen Grambling, Analyst at The Goldman Sachs Group]

That's helpful. And perhaps as a follow-up, going back to Macau, I would love to just -- if you could provide any additional color on the consultation process and what are the kind of the key points of clarification that you are watching for, as you think about how to strategically position the business? Thanks.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I've been involved in -- a lot of my colleagues in Macau over two decades. And we've seen everything in Macau. I mean, we've been through everything. And starting 20 years ago and people said, oh, you can't do business in Macau. And then Cotai wouldn't be successful, then we have the incredibly crippling crisis in '08 and '09. We had smoking issues. It always worked out and we're very proud of what we've done in Macau over the years. I think our activities, our investments speak for themselves. I have faith in the process. They've always treated us fairly, and we've responded with the largest investment in any gaming market in the world. So, we believe we remain believers. We wait for the government's advice and direction. We've submitted our responses. But looking at our history, our success, I believe, we'll be instructive for the future of our business in Macau, and so no more content [Phonetic] beyond that. I think it's clear to say that we have a lot of lead in this market.

[Stephen Grambling, Analyst at The Goldman Sachs Group]

Fair enough. Thanks so much.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Thank you.

[Operator]

Your next question is from the line of Joe Greff from J.P. Morgan. Your line is open.

[Joseph Greff, Analyst at J.P. Morgan]

Hello everybody.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Hi Joe.

[Joseph Greff, Analyst at J.P. Morgan]

Rob and Grant, on Macau's recovery and the potential for more meaningful increased travel and mobility between Mainland China and Macau, you get the impression, whether it's from conversations with the government or otherwise, that this is more likely after the Olympics in Beijing in February?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I'll defer them to the fellows on the ground. But I don't think we've heard these points of Golden Week and it's going to happen when the Olympics are over. I don't think we know, and I think it would be silly for us to predict, Joe. I don't think we can really give you confidence that we have great insight to when the doors will reopen. But we just know they will at some point. I think '22 will be a turn year. But I don't want to get into the game of saying, it's going to happen in this date. I think we said in previous calls, we don't know when. We just know when it does happen, it's going to be very powerful, and it's going to mimic Las Vegas. I mean, anybody who doesn't see that, hasn't spent time in Macau. It's going to be quite a storm of activity over there.

But I don't want to -- the Olympics or Golden Week or because we -- obviously, we've been wrong, but those who predicted have fallen on the sword. There's no reason to -- Grant, Wilfred, do you have a different approach to this? Speak up.

[Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

Yes.

[Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

So, we agree -- sorry, Grant, go ahead.

[Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

So I'm just going to say -- I mean, we see underlying demand continues to be very strong when the opportunity arises. Now the opportunity has -- maybe has been relatively brief one month here, a few weeks there, but we can definitely see the underlying demand actually across all the different segments as very strong. And I think Rob referenced the pent-up demand that we see in Las Vegas coming through. And I think it's not going to be dissimilar in Macau, but agree with Rob, that we can't be really drawing into predicting timing, but we definitely see the evidence on the pent-up demand for sure.

[Wilfred Wong, President of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

And I think that China will open up to the world, when they feel confident that they can control any community outbreak situations. And that depends a lot on the vaccination rate, which at this stage, stands at about 80%, and the availability of medicinal cure. They're now testing with all kinds of cure methods, including Chinese herbal methods, and there's a lot of research going into it. So we're quite hopeful, that very soon with -- and they are vaccinating at about 1.3 million, 1.4 million people a day. So, if they continue like this, in another 200 days, it will be another 10% of the population. So, I think as China's vaccination rate goes up, the government's confidence increases, and we're hopeful that Macau, as part of China, adopting similar policies will benefit from the opening up.

[Joseph Greff, Analyst at J.P. Morgan]

Great. Thank you. Patrick, on the investments on the digital side, can you talk about how you envision maybe the size of those investments over the next couple of years? Are we talking about relatively small, more modest investments, or could we see investments in the hundreds of millions or $1 billion range, depending on what's available and what you like?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

So, it's something we talk about a lot internally. I think some of it's going to be related to the value of the opportunity that we see. I think sort of our thoughts right now is that, we're really thinking earlier stage or mid-stage. But again, it would fit into a larger strategy and that's kind of how we'll think about being effective for the long term and how we think will create long-term value.

I don't know that we'll necessarily look at something that's transformational right away. That's something that we may consider in the future depending on where things go and what market opportunity we see. But I think the good news is, we've got plenty of firepower. We've got a strong management team and expertise in the industry, and we think we can be really helpful to growing technology. So, from our standpoint, we're going to be opportunistic, and we'll see how it goes. But in the beginning, we're going to start small and sort of build from there.

[Joseph Greff, Analyst at J.P. Morgan]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Your next question is from the line of Robin Farley from UBS. Your line is open.

[Robin Farley, Analyst at UBS Group]

Great. Thanks. I wanted to ask about one of the proposals in the new legislation, is that it would require government approval for dividends, and if that were enacted, I realize it's just in the discussion stages now. But if that were enacted into law, would you think twice about investing if you -- if then there would be a chance that you wouldn't be approved, to get a return on that investment. In other words, how much of a concern would that be for you? Thanks.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Pat, do you want to take that?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I'm sorry. Grant -- yeah. I think it -- I think from our standpoint, I think we're obviously very much focused on building on our past. And as Rob mentioned, I think we have a great track record of investing in Macau in scale and nongaming amenities. And I think from our standpoint, we have confidence that, what ultimately will result from this process, will be a good path forward. And so, we're very confident. We're eagerly awaiting instructions on how to proceed. But in our mind, Macau is the best market in the world. We continue to invest. We're very excited about the long term in Macau, and we'll wait and see how things go. But from our standpoint, we're very confident about the future.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Look Robin, one thing I think we trying to reference is, after two decades of being there, we've never found the government to be not thoughtful. They're very thoughtful, and they're going to take these issues and make it reasonable for all of us. We're not that concerned. I mean, I saw -- initially the response was [Indecipherable] that big concern. We don't have those concerns and yes, we're eager to reinvest in Macau and we're assuming that the process will be fair and equal and we're also assuming that they want us to invest as well. The government, they want to see growth in Macau. So, we're not that concerned about that issue at all.

[Robin Farley, Analyst at UBS Group]

Okay. No, that's helpful. Thank you. And maybe just a quick follow-up, just in terms of timing or potential extension of your existing concession. Is there a point at which you feel like the indication is that, it's going to be extended for at least another 12 months? I mean, just given the timing already seems would be -- seems very challenging, to do anything before June of '22, given the inability to travel into the country. Is that safe to assume that at this point, it's not something you would expect to come up for bid before June. Thanks.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I don't think we're going to -- we're not going to voice an opinion, because we just -- again, we remain confident that the process will work out. Again, we have two decades of history with this government and it has been a very good two decades. This company built a great business based on it. We've had -- like every business, you have stops and starts, we have good days and bad days. In the two decades since we started the business in Macau, we've always found the government very reasonable, very thoughtful, and very fair and we're not concerned whether they make that decision next month, the month after, or make it in June. I don't know when they're going to make that decision. I'll let them make that decision and tell us. We'll respond accordingly. But we have no trepidation or any fear that there will be an issue with this. We knew this was coming. I mean, it is a leasehold. We knew this day was coming, and we're prepared for it. And we're also prepared to wait until the government tells us how they want to proceed, and we'll respect that process.

[Robin Farley, Analyst at UBS Group]

Okay, great. Thank you very much.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Thank you.

[Operator]

Your next question is from the line of Shaun Kelley from Bank of America. Your line is open.

[Shaun Kelley, Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch]

Hi. Good morning and afternoon, everyone. Just to maybe follow up on this -- the whole licensing process, I mean, I think one thing we've all thought about is the requirement or the idea that there would probably be incremental capital that would need to be invested either in Macau, theoretically in nongaming amenities, which you know well, or in somewhere in sort of greater Mainland China. And just kind of wanted to ask about that last point, any thoughts on your desire, your ability to invest directly in Mainland China? Is that something you'd be prepared to do? And sort of how would you kind of underwrite returns or think about underwriting those, given some of your return focus, if that was the ask?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I'm going to defer to Patrick, but I'm going to preempt that by saying, we -- again, you know, we have the ability to invest now, that's clear based on our balance sheet. We have the appetite to invest and we have a track record that obviously, we've invested $15 billion. We invested a few billion dollars right before the pandemic hit, which people thought, oh, gee, you want a clarity [Phonetic] in the license, and we did it. So we remain willing and eager to invest in Macau and perhaps other parts of Macau and just waiting for that day to happen.

Patrick, do you want to jump in?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Thanks, Rob. We're very happy and very proud of Sheldon's long-term vision for Macau and for our company's investments. We're very proud of what Sheldon and the company and the team has accomplished over many years there. The amount of investment, the high quality of tourism assets that we've created, the tourism drivers, the nongaming diversification, and really to be fair, a lot of the tourism innovation that we brought to Macau have all been things that have been complementary and followed through with the original goal of the first concession. And so, we're very proud about that, and we're very confident about the future and our ability to invest, in order to support these long-term goals of the government and for the company. And so, I think as we look to potential things that we may have to do in terms of future investment, we welcome the opportunity. We would love to invest more. We're very eager to deploy capital into these markets. We think they're very high quality and we really believe in the future.

So, there's just been a lot of commentary around things that may happen to occur or may have to occur. I don't think anyone really knows. I think the only thing that we're very confident about is our ability to invest, to innovate from the tourism side, and to drive, really, the support of the initiatives that have been asked of us. So, from that standpoint, we're ready to do it. But until we get clear direction, there's not really much more we can say.

[Shaun Kelley, Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch]

Great. And maybe just as a follow-up, sticking with the investment theme, probably for you, Patrick, but just thinking about the -- like the same question for Singapore. Obviously, there, you have a little bit more of a developed path on dollars that have been allocated and when you want to get going. But can you just give us the latest on when you think you'd actually be moving on some of the investment you guys have committed to make there, and building out the additional hotel tower and expansion?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. You know, as we've said before, I think we're very excited to do it. It represents a tremendous opportunity to support Singapore's goals, to deploy a significant amount of capital in the most privileged market in the world, which is really one of the great cities in the world. Singapore is growing. It was growing tremendously before the pandemic. And they've really been leaders in their public health initiatives to support their population during the pandemic.

So, we're very proud to be there. I think we would love to get started as soon as possible. But right now, they're dealing with a lot of things that have a higher priority. So, we're waiting patiently. We have a long-term partnership with the government, and we're looking forward to working through the open remaining items, so that we can begin. But our plan is to begin and we're very excited about it. So, the question is when, and I think that's going to be dictated by necessary public health responses around timing and opening.

[Shaun Kelley, Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch]

Thank you very much.

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Thanks Shaun.

[Operator]

Your next question is from Ben Chaiken from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.

[Benjamin Chaiken, Analyst at Credit Suisse Group]

Hey, how's it going? You know, there has been lots of conversation understandably about investing in digital and future investments that may be required in Singapore and Macau. But at the same time, you spoke about pent-up demand in Macau and Singapore, which seems to make a share buyback at these levels potentially a more compelling ROI. I guess, how do you balance the optionality of those different options, I guess, yeah?

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

So, we think about this a lot. We spend a lot of time on it as a management team. We run a lot of sensitivities and scenarios around potential returns, and it's interesting. We have a lot of opportunity as a company. We're really excited about it. And I think our highest and best use of capital and to create the best shareholder returns really is to develop new projects from the ground up. That's how we built the company. That's how we've always created the return profile that has made our equity very compelling.

And so, from our standpoint, that's our focus. Rob and the rest of the team spent a lot of time looking at new development opportunities in many different jurisdictions. And so, we're focused on deploying capital into those jurisdictions to grow the business. At the same time, we recognize there's opportunity in the equity. And in the past, we've always returned excess capital through share repurchases. And so that's something that we'll look to do in the future. But at this point, I think we're evaluating a lot of opportunities for real growth. And so, from that standpoint, we're very excited. But we'll always look at the return potential of buying equity. Do we believe the equity is at a compelling level? Absolutely. But at the same time, we also like to believe that we have some real significant development opportunities in the future, that will create very significant returns as well. So, to your point, it is a balance. But we look at it, and we're trying to allocate capital in the best way that we can.

[Benjamin Chaiken, Analyst at Credit Suisse Group]

Thanks.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Thank you. Your next question is from the line of Dan Politzer from Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

[Daniel Politzer, Analyst at Wells Fargo & Company]

Hey everyone. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. So on Singapore, how do you think about margins for this property over the next couple of years? I think there's a higher tax rate that goes into effect and potentially impact from construction, disruption and possibly some of the costs you were able to optimize over the past 18 months. So, going forward over the next couple of years, how do you think about that, given the expectation for pent-up demand to come back in 2022?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Well, first of all, I look at what's happened again, as instructive, look at Las Vegas. The so-called four year recovery took again about less than a year. I think Singapore is a viable Las Vegas, in terms of the pre-COVID recovery being stronger, which means stronger margins for us and bigger growth. I think this market in Singapore is proving very resilient in the past, especially when the governments kind of open the traveling, open the doors up, I think margins will be just fine. By the way, we didn't furlough people or lay off lots of people, didn't squeeze people out the door. We stood by our employees and I think we didn't necessarily maximize, we could have. We decided not to do that. And I think that's to our credit.

But on the other hand, I think our business there will reoccur back to pre-COVID levels and probably beyond pre-COVID. And again, if Vegas is instructive, and I believe it is, the demand is going to be extraordinary in Asia. The lockdown here in Las Vegas was much shorter than the lockdown in Asia. Yet the gambling proclivity for a lot of Asian countries is stronger than Las Vegas. So anybody who thinks Singapore is not going to come back with a vengeance, I think is mistaken, the same in Macau. And of course, those revenues will drive our margins. So I have no fear that we're going to return to pre-COVID margins and pre-COVID revenues and exceed both. In fact, I'm really bullish on Singapore, it will be the first and the best place open next year for the gamer or for the tourists or for the leisure traveler. It's going to be exceptional plan to revisit. You see where the government is going. I mean, they've indicated they're anxious to open. Their vaccination rates are soaring. The traveling is being established. The neighbor is getting better, Malaysia, Korea, Japan. Indonesia is still lagging, but coming on. So, I think it's just a question of time, '22 is the turn year. So we see margins and revenues and EBITDA as being much more back to normal than in the last 24 months.

[Daniel Politzer, Analyst at Wells Fargo & Company]

Got it. Thanks. And then just one more on Macau. I mean, when Macau does eventually recover, how do you think about your share of mass and slot GGR evolving, given the opening of The Londoner, which we didn't have back in 2019. And also, I know you targeted a different customer, but how do you anticipate any impact from Lisboa Palace on your properties? And if so, if there is an impact, which ones?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah. Mr. Chum, are you still awake?

[Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah Rob. I think history of Macau shows every time we have large-scale, high-quality product coming in on Cotai, it helps the market and I think, when the demand comes back, it's going to be to the market's benefit, and to the whole industry's benefit that we've got a good new product that customers can patronize. And that applies to Lisboa Palace, that applies to what some of our other competitors will be -- will have opened by then. And obviously, we think first and foremost, it's going to apply to what we've completed in Grand Suites at Four Seasons, and also the Londoner Macau. So, we're very excited and confident that, when the demand returns, all these new projects, but I would say, especially our projects is going to be a growth driver for the industry, and by implication, we hope that we will achieve good market share. But I think it's much more about -- as the history and two decades have shown, growing the overall pie and I think in terms of segments, again, I wouldn't hesitate to say that it's going to be positive across a very broad base of segmentation of the mass, the premium mass and so forth.

[Daniel Politzer, Analyst at Wells Fargo & Company]

Got it. Thanks so much, guys.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Your next question is from the line of David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is open.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Hi David.

[Patrick Dumont, President and Chief Operating Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

David, you there?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

David? We have lost Mr. Katz.

[Operator]

Okay. We'll go to the next question. It's from the line of Steve Wieczynski from Stifel. Your line is open.

[Steven Wieczynski, Analyst at Stifel Nicolaus]

Hey guys. Good afternoon. Just one question here for me -- good afternoon Rob. Just one question for me. And Rob, I know you're probably tired of answering a bunch of hearsay questions about the renewal process and this one. It's probably going to be a bit more direct. But I guess, a simple question is, do you guys see a scenario out there, where you are not operating any casino assets in Macau at some point in the near future? And I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's a question I think a lot of investors are pondering right now, given the vagueness that has come out of the Chinese government about, what they're actually looking for?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I do not. I see no chance of that whatsoever. I think we're -- but I'll refer -- I apologize if I sound like a broken record. But the truth is, we've been doing this for a couple of decades. We have the unparalleled track record. The whole Cotai developer was the one guy who did that, and that's Sheldon. One guy put $15 billion on the grond of nongaming and gaming assets. One company made almost $4 billion EBITDA, and I think we have been stellar with our employees. So I remain beyond confident that we'll be operating in Macau. I don't think there's any chance whatsoever that we wouldn't be. And I'm not saying that rhetorically, I mean that sincerely, every indication we've gotten is the opposite. So we, again, are very proud of our track record, proud of our development, and proud of our investment. But I think the government has recognized we've been awfully good licensee and partner and friends with China and Macau, and we're eager to be back there. So no, I don't believe that's a possibility.

[Steven Wieczynski, Analyst at Stifel Nicolaus]

Okay, great. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Sure. Anybody else?

[Operator]

Your final question is from the line of David Katz from Jefferies. Your line is open.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Hi, David.

[David Katz, Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group]

Hi, all. Can you hear me now?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah. We thought you fell asleep on us, because you're in Macau.

[David Katz, Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group]

There is no sleeping at Jefferies. What I was really hoping to have the team's perspective on, is really VIP gaming. Because we do spend a fair amount of time talking with investors, with people on the ground, etc., around what the VIP -- what the future of the VIP business really looks like. There have been some sort of public pressures on it, talk about currency changes and things like that, that presumably would have some impact. What does the solid recovery core look like in VIP?

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Yeah. I just want Grant to take that question, as he lives and breathes. You're talking Macau, I assume, and the whole junket issue. Is that right?

[David Katz, Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group]

Yeah. Yes.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

Yes. Okay. So, let's begin with a little bit of historical perspective. Again, for the 20-plus years we've been doing business in Macau, we've heard this. This isn't going to work. That's not going to work. The revenues will never go anywhere. We've been hearing this for off-on. Segments are going to fall apart. The latest thing is to say that VIP is going to go away to the junket. So I just remain a huge believer in that market of all segments. Obviously, we made our strength in the mass premium. That has been our bread and butter and it will continue to be. But I don't think there is ever [Phonetic] discount. Those who have discount, this segment has done it at their own peril. I think it can -- it could move to a different channel, a different way of being available. But the gamers are going to keep happening in all segments in Macau.

As a precursor to Grant's comments, I think you have to realize how powerful this market has been, the growth has been unbelievable. Those of us who started back in 2002, '03 and '04, never have dreamed the way every segment just developed. In the 2010, '11, '12 year, it was the junkets that drilled Macau since then, and morphed into our premium mass market and now premium mass-mass market. And again, our company has been more focused on those base mass and premium mass segments. But the VIP has served the market very well. So, I think it will reemerge in a different form with different channels of distribution and that's my take.

Grant, you're much closer to this, so please speak up.

[Grant Chum, Las Vegas Sands Corp. Chief Operating Officer of Sands China at Las Vegas Sands]

No, I think you said it very well, Rob. I think it's important to remember, again, that the proportion of profit coming from that segment especially, I think you're more referencing the junket segment versus our own VIP business is very, very small. It's really low single digit on pre-COVID. So I know people spend a lot of time talking about it, but our business is really geared to that large-scale destination resort with premium mass, mass, the leisure, the FIT, and the future is going to be that structural growth in those segments, as well as the nongaming, the retail, the MICE and so that's where really our reinvestments and our asset base have really focused on.

[Robert G. Goldstein, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Las Vegas Sands]

I think the driver -- to Grant's point, the driver of that market is always going to be -- what we're focused is lifestyle, extraordinary entertainment, restaurants, retail, rooms. That's where our investment is. You'll see the Londoner, that's where the focus was. The Four Seasons was more toward the very high-end premium mass. But no matter what form it takes, the gamer is going to just keep going over there and the desire to come to Macau is going to grow. So, whether it'd be the new assets we built another company, it just enhances the market. And I don't think there will ever be a lack of customers, a lack of visitors to Macau.

The problem is going to be -- and the market comes roaring back and whenever, it's '22, whatever, I think the problem is going to be lack of capacity, I mean, lack of rooms. That market is always burdened by new capacity, new lodging, because whether it be base mass, premium mass, is no longer a Hong Kong-dependent overnight market. It's a stay overnight market. It's a leisure market, a business market. It's a spectacular market and we're going to be there with everybody else trying to get our fair share and I think our new assets, if you ever get to see them, and we hope until next year, we are going to surprise you. What we've done with the Londoner and Four Seasons is the best thing we've ever done in my opinion. So, we look forward to getting back to Macau and getting back to business.

Thanks David.

[Operator]

[Operator Closing Remarks]