Canadian Solar Q3 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
November 14, 2023

Key Takeaways

  • In Q3 Canadian Solar shipped 8.3 GW of solar modules, generated $1.85 billion in revenue with a 16.7% gross margin and net income of $22 million.
  • The company has ramped up n-type TopCon cell capacity to represent half of total cell capacity (rising to 60% by year-end) with mass-production conversion efficiency now at 25.65% and targeting above 26% next year.
  • Canadian Solar is making strategic investments in premium markets, including a 5 GW solar cell plant in Jeffersonville, Indiana, a 5 GW module plant in Mesquite, Texas, and a 5 GW wafer facility in Thailand to comply with IRA and ADCVT rules.
  • The utility-scale energy storage backlog has grown to $2.6 billion with ~$520 million signed since June, representing 6–6.5 GWh of 2024 deliveries and improving project profitability as lithium carbonate costs fall.
  • Distribution channels in Europe are experiencing inventory destocking that management believes will take one to two quarters to clear, contributing to a Q4 shipment guidance of 7.6–8.1 GW and a 14–16% gross margin forecast.
AI Generated. May Contain Errors.
Earnings Conference Call
Canadian Solar Q3 2023
00:00 / 00:00

There are 10 speakers on the call.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome to Canadian Solar's Third Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. My name is Shamali, and I will be your operator for today. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. Later, we will conduct a question and answer session.

Operator

As a reminder, this conference is being recorded for replay purposes. I would now like to turn the call over to Isabel Zhang, Investor Relations Director at Canadian Solar. Please go ahead.

Speaker 1

Thank you, operator, and welcome everyone to Canadian Solar's Third Quarter 2023 Conference Call. Please note that today's conference call is accompanied with slides that are available on Canadian Solar's Investor Relations website within the Events and Presentation section. Joining us today are Doctor. Sean Chu, Chairman and CEO Yan Zhuang, President of Canadian Solar's majority owned subsidiary, CSI Solar Doctor. Hui Song Chen, Senior VP and CFO And Ms.

Speaker 1

Nyle Vareto, Corporate VP and CEO of Canadian Solar's wholly owned subsidiary of Recurrent Energy, also formerly Global Energy. All company executives will participate in the Q and A session after management's formal remarks. On this call, Sean will go over some key messages for the quarter. Jan and Ms. Miley will review business highlights for CSI Solar and Recurrent Energy, respectively.

Speaker 1

And Hassane will go through the financial results. Sean will conclude the prepared remarks with the business outlook, after which we will have time for questions. Before we begin, I would like to remind listeners that management's prepared remarks today as well as their answers to questions will contain forward looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties. The company claims protection and data safe harbor for forward looking statements that is contained in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Actual results may differ from management's current expectations.

Speaker 1

Any projections of the company's future performance represent management's estimates as of today. Canadian Solar assumes no obligation to update these projections in the future unless otherwise required by applicable law. A more detailed discussion of risks Uncertainties can be found in the company's annual report on Form 20 F filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Management's prepared remarks Some financial information presented during the call will be provided on both a GAAP and non GAAP basis. By disclosing certain non GAAP information, management intends to provide investors with additional information to enable further analysis of the company's performance and underlying trends.

Speaker 1

National Media uses non GAAP measures to better And now, I would like to turn the call over to Canadian Solar's Chairman and CEO, Doctor. Sean Chew. Sean, please go ahead.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Isabelle, and thank you to everyone for joining our Q3 call today. Please turn to Slide 3. We achieved solid Q3 results Despite the continued challenging environment, during the quarter, we delivered 8.3 gigawatts The solar module shipment, we generated $1,850,000,000 in net revenue 16.7 percent gross margin and total net Income attributable to Canadian Solar Shareholders of $22,000,000 Let me share a few key takeaways. Please turn to Slide 4. 1st, Even with the challenging operating environment, the industry is healthy.

Speaker 2

To give you some color, I have worked in the solar industry for well over 20 years, but only just witnessed Total cumulative solar installed capacity finally reached 1 terawatt worldwide in 2022. As we look ahead, strong global demand We are on track to drive that number up to 1 terawatt in annual installations. I strongly believe this can happen before the end of the decade or 2030. That is an incredible amount of growth ahead of us. Adding to this, The battery energy storage system market, our vast market, is also growing rapidly.

Speaker 2

I believe that fast market is also on pace to reach the terawatt generation Over the coming decade, as it hits its 1st terawatt hours of cumulative Deployments. Of course, short term market cyclical fluctuations Inevitable with demand and supply constantly rebalancing. However, even with the current high cost of capital, solar and energy storage program returns More economically attractive today than ever before. This is due to the lower equipment costs At higher electricity prices, the push towards decarbonization and net zero emissions Yes, stronger than ever before, and the challenges of Tenetech Security remain. I strongly believe that the solutions we provide the market are truly the most competitive, Impactful and scalable in the fight against climate change.

Speaker 2

For long term, We believe the market fundamentals remain very strong. Turning to Slide 5. Technology remains a key driver of growth and the program in the industry. Over the past 20 years, Convergent efficiencies improved from less than 15% to well over 25% now. Entype, yes, the next big technology driver, and we have already ramped Capacity.

Speaker 2

Untapped top count cell capacity now accounts for half of our Total cell capacity is expected to reach 60% by the end of this year. This gives us a major competitive advantage over other companies that have Please turn to Slide 6. The 3rd point I would like to make It's on the continued strategic long term investments we are making in key premium markets, Including the U. S, we are making major inroads. We recently announced New 5 gigawatt solar cell investment in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

Speaker 2

Jeffersonville is on the northern side of the Ohio River on the border between Indiana and Kentucky. We chose this location after extensive analysis And evaluation of 85 different sites across the U. S. It is going to be one of our Largest single investment, which will enable us to not only better serve U. S.

Speaker 2

Customers with the Most advanced technology, but also fulfill the local content rules of the Inflation Reduction Act, or IRA. We're excited Because our new 5 gigawatt cell facility will complement the new 5 gigawatt Solar module facility in Mesquite, Texas, which we announced earlier this year. The Maskeid facility is on track to start producing modules in a few weeks before the end of the year. In fact, I was there last week and was pleased to see the team fine tuning I'm working on the final preparations for mass production. I'm very proud of everyone involved in executing these 2 important manufacturing plans.

Speaker 2

We also thank the officials in Indiana and Texas and the local officials in Jeffersonville and Mesquite for their unwavering critical support. We look forward to continuing work with them as we grow in these communities, In addition, we also recently announced a 5 gigawatt solar wafer facility in Thailand, which will complement our investments in the U. S. And allow us to responsibly meet The new requirements related to latest and adjusted ADCVT ruling by the U. S.

Speaker 2

Department of Commerce. Concurrently, we are adjusting the procurement of our module deal of materials in accordance with the newest regulation. Overall, we are strongly positioning ourselves to deliver long term Profitable growth for our shareholders. Please turn to Slide 7. Lastly, we continue to lead in our ESG efforts.

Speaker 2

Recently, our ESG Working Group held global internal ESG town halls to socialize our initial tests and seek greater participation from our employees across all our regions. In this process, we continue to gather ideas and feedbacks from our great talent tool. Over the next year, we plan to focus on setting our SEPI, Our Science Based Initiative Climate targets. We will also be expanding Recurrent Energy's ESG practices across OS Development and Construction activities. This includes standardizing ESG procedures to the strictest Levels of biodiversity and geological surveying, community engagement And environmental justice policies, enhanced health and safety and so on.

Speaker 2

Historically, we have mostly focused on the manufacturing side of the business, which naturally has the greatest environmental impact. But we are making sure that our efforts We are committed to continue improvement. Reflecting on our leadership efforts in ESG, We recently received the Global Sustainability Reporting of the Year Award by Environmental Finance. Congratulations to the global teams for their hard work. Canadian Solar will continue to work on our ESG disclosures, enhance Strategy and execution and seek improvement every year.

Speaker 2

With that, Let me turn the call over to Yan, who will provide more details on our CSI Solar business. Yan, please Go ahead.

Speaker 3

Thanks, Sean. Please turn to Slide 8. In Q3, as Shawn noted earlier, the CSI Solar division delivered 8.3 Gigawatts in solar modules shipments and $1,800,000,000 in net revenues. Gross margin was 16.6%, 2.30 basis points higher than last quarter, driven by lower manufacturing costs and the higher level of vertical integration. This was partially offset by lower solar modules price.

Speaker 3

It also included a $35,000,000 inventory write down, which was specifically for modules in warehouses intended for certain distributed generation markets. Without the write down, CSI Solar's gross margin would have been 18.5%. Let me now give you an update on the key drivers and market dynamics we're seeing. Please turn to Slide 9. First, in Q3, we added 13 gigawatts of Topcon cell capacity.

Speaker 3

We expect to add another 11 gigawatts by the end of 2023. As we explained previously, this expansion will meaningfully help us improve our vertical integration and enhance our As Sean mentioned earlier, we are big believers in n type technology and its ability to drive change in our industry. We also believe that Topgom is the most competitive N type technology for the next few years. In fact, Topcon Technology has pleasantly surprised us since we have been adding more lines Over the past few months, for example, the conversion efficiency of our mass produced Topcon sales Has now reached an average of 25.65 percent, which is nearly 3.5 percentage points Higher than that of Perk. We're confident we'll exceed the 26% threshold next year.

Speaker 3

However, that is still well below the theoretical limit for Topgum, which is currently 28.7%, And this number will likely increase over time as well. 2nd, let's look at our capacity by region. I want to highlight the implications of our capacity investments. We believe we will meaningfully increase our U. S.

Speaker 3

Market share With our capacity expansion in the U. S. And Thailand, where we're investing across the supply chain from modules to cells to wafer. Over the past few years, we have been shipping on average around 3.5 gigawatts to the U. S.

Speaker 3

As we did not make any major investments due to the uncertain policy environment, the circumstances have obviously changed Over the past 12 months and next year, we intend to deliver significant growth in the U. S. Market, supported by a combination of our new local capacity in the U. S. As well as in Thailand.

Speaker 3

We have also set up our own internal capacity for certain wheel of materials in Vietnam. And by March of next year, we expect to meet The new requirements on the 4 out of 6 rule in the newest Department of Commerce ruling on ABCVD Circumvention for 100 percent of our solar module production in Thailand. Let me also make a few comments about our shipments to the U. S. As certain false information about Canadian Solar was recently brought to our attention.

Speaker 3

In the 1st 3 quarters of 2023, we imported approximately 3 gigawatts of solar modules Manufactured in Thailand into the U. S. Over the past few weeks, a sampling of containers Has been detained for inspection under the UFLPA. This is a small fraction of the total, only amounting to approximately 150 Megawatts as of last Friday. More importantly, we believe the detained merchandise is outside the scope of the UFLPA, and we are fully cooperating with CBP to provide detailed information to that effect.

Speaker 3

As we have strictly feasibility procedures in place, moreover, Canadian Solar follows comprehensive ESG protocols and do not tolerate forced labor Or any other form of modem slavery, in 2022, we conducted 122 supplier EST audits. We believe this is one of the most rigorous Lastly, turn to Slide 10. I would like to highlight our continued progress in e storage, our utility scale storage business. Since June 30 this year, our team has signed approximately $520,000,000 in new contracts and our total contracted backlog Has increased to $2,600,000,000 Of these, around half are expected to be delivered next year, which is equivalent to approximately 6 to 6.5 gigawatt hours of projects. As we speak, our teams are busy With customers closing more transactions, which we expect to announce over the next few weeks, I'm proud that we have built a very strong global team that is able to execute and deliver on some of the most differentiated storage technical solutions in the market.

Speaker 3

Their ability to solve complex problems for our customers has allowed us to sign contracts The profitability of e storage has also been improving as most of our contracts have fixed prices. Whereas our costs Have been declining alongside the decline in lithium carbonate prices. Hence, we expect e storage to be a much bigger contributor to CSI Solar revenues and notably profits in 2024. Now let me hand over to Ismail to provide an overview of Recurrent Energy, Canadian Solar's Global Project Development Business. Ismail, please go ahead.

Speaker 4

Thank you, Jan. Please turn to Slide 11. In Q3, we delivered $64,000,000 in revenue with a 27.7 percent gross margin. Q3 was expected to be a sequentially lower, but still profitable quarter For Ricard Energy, from a gross margin standpoint, as we only monetized an 18 megawatt project in Japan on a few smaller projects in Taiwan. However, as I have started emphasizing recently, we are now shifting more of our resources towards executing projects as we intend to grow our base of operating assets that generate recurring earnings.

Speaker 4

In Q3, nearly 300 megawatts of projects in the U. S. Closed financing, including both tax equity and project finance, and are now under construction. We expect to hold these projects longer term. We also expect to close financing on a third one soon with construction then starting.

Speaker 4

Hence, we plan to have close to 500 megawatts under construction in the U. S. By the end of 2023. In Europe, we have approximately 150 megawatts under construction with financing and lucrative PPAs in place. Over the course of the next year, we expect to COD around 500 megawatts of projects and start construction of approximately 1.7 gigawatts of solar and 800 megawatt hours of storage projects, which we intend to hold long term.

Speaker 4

All of this means we are executing on our strategy. We are transitioning from mostly being a pure developer to a developer plus asset owner and operator. Over time, this will allow us to deliver more stable, forecastable growth as over 70 The revenues of the assets we intend to retain control of are fully contracted and diversified in low risk currencies only. We've also significantly expanded our operations on maintenance, our O and M capabilities. In Q3, We acquired a market leading O and M team in the U.

Speaker 4

K, significantly expanding our O and M contracted capacity from 6 gigawatts At the end of last quarter, 28 gigawatts at the end of Q3. This brought us to top 3 in the world by global O and M market share. Being one of the largest and most geographically diversified Roanem operators and power services providers for both solar and storage assets Enables us to better understand and optimize the performance of these assets in different locations around the world. Please turn to Slide 12. As of September 30, our total development pipeline grew To 26 gigawatts of solar and 55 gigawatt hours for battery storage projects.

Speaker 4

While we are focusing our resources on executing late stage projects, we are also proactively developing new origination opportunities. The persistently high interest rate environment has made generating high returns more challenging. However, the decrease in system costs has also helped offset these effects, including the significant decline in solar module and lithium prices as well as the lower cost of steel That has reduced the cost of trackers and other pieces of equipment. Technology improvements such as stopcon I've also improved our project economics through higher efficiency and lower degradation. And the interest From off takers for renewable assets remain as a strong as ever, helping us sign lucrative PPAs.

Speaker 4

Securing interconnections and interconnection delays continue to be the main constraints for our business today. But having approximately 13 gigawatts of solar and 12 gigawatt hours of storage interconnection secured give us very good long term growth visibility. One of the key advantages of being a global project developer It's our ability to apply lessons learned and best practices from one region to others. For example, We are one of the market leaders in energy storage development in the U. S, where we developed and completed 3 gigawatt hours of projects.

Speaker 4

We are now applying that valuable speedings as we pursue significant storage opportunities across Europe, Japan and areas in Latin America. In these markets, we are the only player with a significant track record in storage development. This lends us Significant credibility and competitive bets to take advantage of the earliest and most profitable opportunities that will create long term value. Similarly, being one of the few developers that can provide PPAs in different parts of the world Give us a significant advantage with global off takers who are seeking a streamlined process when signing renewable projects in different countries. We have been very successful in signing contracts in different jurisdictions with the same global customer, thanks to this advantage.

Speaker 4

Now let me hand over to Rifan, who will go through our financial results in more detail. Rifan, please go ahead.

Speaker 5

Thank you, Ishmael. Please turn to Slide 13. In Q3, we delivered 1.8 $5,000,000,000 in net revenues, down 22% sequentially and 4% year over year. The sequential decrease was driven by lower project sales in Q3 relative to Q2 And a decline in module average selling price. Gross margin was 16.7%, A sequential decrease from 18.6% in the prior quarter.

Speaker 5

This was mainly driven by a lower contribution from the Recurring Energy segment, which monetized a large high margin project in the Q2 of 2023. On the CSI Solar side, margins improved due to a faster decline in costs relative to ASPs. In addition, CSI Solar incurred a $35,000,000 inventory write off specifically for modules in warehouses intended for certain distributed generation markets. Without the write down, the Q3 total gross margin Would have been 18.6 percent. Selling and distribution expenses were up 14% sequentially, driven by higher unit logistics costs.

Speaker 5

General and administrative expenses declined 18% sequentially As share based compensation expense related to the CSI Solar IPO from Q2 did not reoccur in Q3. This was partially offset by other factors, including a Topgum ramp up cost. Research and development costs Increased 25% sequentially due to higher spending in Topcom and the storage R and D. Overall operating expenses increased by 4%. Net interest expense in the quarter was $11,000,000 down from $21,000,000 in the prior quarter.

Speaker 5

This was mainly driven by the higher Interest income from higher cash balance during the quarter from the proceeds of the CSI Solar IPO, which has not been spent yet, The net foreign exchange and the derivative loss in Q3 was $70,000,000 compared to a net gain of $34,000,000 in Total income was $62,000,000 with net income attributable to Canadian Solar shareholders at $22,000,000 for diluted EPS of $0.32 Now turning to the cash flow and the balance sheet, Please turn to Slide 14. In Q3, we generated approximately $158,000,000 in operating cash And we invested $305,000,000 in CapEx. Our full year 2023 CapEx Budget is reduced slightly to approximately $1,300,000,000 This means that Q4 will have a significant While we firm up next year's CapEx plans, we expect the next year's number to be slightly higher than last two off from this year's CapEx level. So we ended the 3rd quarter with a healthy total cash balance of $3,000,000,000 Our leverage as measured in net debt to EBITDA, excluding the cash was at 1.6 times, slightly higher than last quarter. Our financing programs now include 2 green bonds, 1 issued in Europe and the other In Japan, the latter, which we closed around a month ago.

Speaker 5

So now let me turn the call back to Xiaoyang will conclude with our guidance and the business outlook. Xiaoyang, please go ahead.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Huifeng. Let's turn to Slide 15. For the Q4 of 2023, we expect solar module shipment by CSI Solar to be in the range of 7.6 to 8.1 gigawatts, including approximately 85 Megawatts to recurrent energy projects. Total e storage utility scale battery storage Shamali, iCSI Solar are expected to be in the range of 1.4 1.5 gigawatt hours, of which approximately 7 20 megawatt hours are expected From a financial point of view, we expect total revenue to be in the range of $1,600,000,000 to $1,800,000,000 and gross margin is expected to be between 14% to 16% in the 4th quarter. For the full year 2024, we expect total Polar module shipments to grow to the range of 42 to 47 gigawatts.

Speaker 2

We expect total battery energy storage shipments to grow to the range of These numbers include approximately 2 gigawatts of solar and 2.5 gigawatt hours of Storage internal shipment to recurrent energy projects, respectively. Well, competition is always tough in this industry and probably more so today Then in the time past, overall, Canadian Solar is well positioned to execute Through the near term challenges and drive long term growth, the strong position we hold Across our key markets, segments and business units gives us A major competitive advantage. This includes the e storage, which is one of our 1st growing businesses with improving profitability. We expect to further strengthen Our leadership position as we expect to more than triple shipments of our Utility scale energy storage solution in 2024, gaining additional market share in the global energy storage market. With that, I would now like to open the floor for questions.

Operator

Operator? Thank you. At this time, we will be conducting a question and answer session. Our first question comes from the line of Colin Rusk with Oppenheimer. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 6

Thanks so much. Sean, you've been through a number of these cycles with the industry as it's grown and gone through some down cycles. And I know that folks are really trying to get some visibility into what's going on in the distribution channel with inventory. Can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing both from an overall inventory level, but also a sell through and expectation around cycle times, both in your own distributor business as well as your customers particularly in Europe.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Collin. As you said, I have gone Through quite many cycles like this in the past 27 years in the solar industry. And actually, sitting here, I feel better, much better this time than other Industry uncertainty or tough time, that's because number 1, Canadian Solar is much Bigger, also with sufficient cash, actually a lot of sitting a lot of cash. So I don't have to worry about liquidity at all. Now talking about the inventory sales through, As you know, the distribution market accounts for about 30%, 35% of the total And in this market, it seems that there are some inventories In the channel, in the sector market, but not older market, For example, in China market, actually, I don't see much inventory in the distribution channel.

Speaker 2

But in European market, maybe. No, actually, to answer your question, I received a customer, Always our number one distributor in Europe just last week. And I'll ask Tim the question. I'll ask him, look, how do you think those inventories will affect you? How long do you think It will take to sell through in Europe.

Speaker 2

And he said, maybe 1 quarter, maybe less. Then I said, well, I read on some Internet news that some people were talking about 80 gigawatt, 90 gigawatt inventory. Do you see that? And he said, no, no, Sean. I don't know actually, I don't know where those information on the rumors starting.

Speaker 2

I certainly don't see This much inventory, the scale of inventory is much smaller. So that's the information My customer gave to me or the distribution customer gave to me just last week. So Yan and I feel to be more conservative, we feel let's Be prepared for more than 1 quarter, maybe this quarter and a little bit of and also Q1, Because Q1 is winter, right? It's a low season. So maybe it takes 2 quarters to sell through.

Speaker 2

So that's my feeling, Collin.

Speaker 6

Thank you so much, Sean. Super helpful. And I guess the second one is really for Ishmael. There's a lot of discussion around Interconnection and grid capacity for taking on new projects. Can you talk a little bit about the cadence at which you're Seeing projects move through interconnection queues and the potential for some of these energy storage projects to move a little bit faster into construction and potentially prioritizing the energy storage elements of projects before the solar as you get into 2024 And how you see that evolving?

Speaker 4

Thank you, Collin. Thanks so much for the question. Lucas, it remains being the main issue. Not only the saturation of the grid, but also the delays on executing the The good thing in our case is that we have very good visibility for To keep on alerting the pipeline on the relatively short term for whoever needs that. Look, transformers, You need to order way in advance, and you are taking a significant risk because sometimes you need to order them before Fully finalizing your permitting process, otherwise you are going to be late.

Speaker 4

In the storage We start to see more acceleration than before. We are starting to have the first projects coming in Europe. We are starting to receive the 1st interconnections for the storage in Japan. So we believe it's going to accelerate, Probably not as fast as we wish, but it's starting to happen. I hope I answered the question.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 6

Thanks so much guys.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Philip Shen with ROTH MKM. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 7

Hey guys, thanks for taking my questions. As a follow-up to The question earlier around inventory and the outlook for Europe. Sean, I was wondering if you could kind of speak a little bit bigger picture In terms of your guidance, your Q4 guidance is declining 5% quarter over quarter, in a seasonally strong quarter. But then you're looking at 2024 and it seems like you could grow shipments maybe 50% year over year. So if the slowdown for Europe is maybe Q4 and Q1, is the expectation that there is a Tremendous recovery as we get through Q2 and Q4 of next year.

Speaker 7

Thanks.

Speaker 2

Hi, Philip. This is in Yan's territory. So I will ask Yan to answer the question.

Speaker 3

Hey, Philip, as you already know that the destocking actually started In Europe, like end of Q2, it's already started. So it's been 2 quarters already. And We believe by Q1, it should be somehow finished. And Once that channel is coming back with such a dramatic price reduction over the past year, We should see strong demand coming back. And so and as you know that We have a pretty strong presence in that channel.

Speaker 3

So we anticipate a strong coming back In Europe and other markets as well. So and this is we're in a price elastic market. So with such a price reduction, The demand is going to be stimulated to a much higher level. It just may not happen Right away, but there's going to be maybe some delay in a few quarters, a couple of quarters, we'll come back. On the utility side as well, so we had Some demand reduction on the utility side as well over the year due to different bottlenecks on EPC, On interconnection, on some equipment, but also some speculation people expect multi price coming down, so they decide today.

Speaker 3

But Over the course of next year, we should see the utility demand also should come back strong. So we actually see we I anticipate a strong demand pickup in latest second half of next year.

Speaker 7

Great. Thanks for all the color, Yan. Shifting to the U. S. Market, you mentioned in your remarks that 150 megawatts of product was detained.

Speaker 7

Looking ahead, do you expect risk from new shipments to be detained? And how many gigawatts do you think you could ship into the U. S. From Southeast Asia in 2024? And as it relates to the detention, what type of bomb is in the module That has been detained.

Speaker 7

How long do you expect the detention to last? And do you expect it to spread? Thank you.

Speaker 3

Well, so we're actively cooperating with CVP I'm submitting the documentation. We're actually very confident to meet our feasibility procedures. And from our knowledge that both non China and China silicon has passed through the customer. So we're working with them and we're confident that we can resolve this soon.

Speaker 7

Okay. Yes. Thank you.

Speaker 3

And for next year, we should have a strong growth, as Sean has mentioned, in the U.

Speaker 7

Can you share how many gigawatts you think could be in the U. S. Next year?

Speaker 2

Well, Philip, as you know, we used to have about 4 gigawatt solar cell capacity In U. S, and we are now building 8 gigawatt Topcon capacity, Not in U. S, I'm sorry. 4 gigawatt of solar cell capacity in Thailand, and we are now ramping up Another 8 gigawatt of Topcon Solar Cell. Now, most of those Capacitors are built in order to serve the U.

Speaker 2

S. Customer. I guess that's the information I can provide to you at this moment.

Speaker 7

Okay. Thank you, Sean. Another question here. What is your base assumption of the I've heard other Chinese companies Suggest that the U. S.

Speaker 7

Market could be 80 gigawatts of module shipments, with maybe 50 gigawatts of integration, which seems pretty high. So I was wondering what you think the 2024 baseline could be in your base case. Thanks.

Speaker 2

Now, I want to just check if our Senior Vice President, Thomas, Colonel is online. Thomas, are you online? Thomas? Okay, forget it. Next time.

Speaker 2

So, yes, we will

Speaker 3

be Okay. So actually, we're seeing also seeing Anticipating a strong growth of U. S. Market demand next year. I'm not sure about 80 gigawatt, but they should be much higher than this year.

Speaker 3

That's our estimate.

Speaker 7

I think Thomas might be available now. What's the basis of that strength? Utility scale might grow 10% to 15%, residential I see down 10%, 12% actually. And then commercial might be flat to up, but it's not a big market. So just curious Where do you anticipate that strong growth?

Speaker 7

Thanks.

Operator

Thomas, your line is now live.

Speaker 5

Hello. Hi, this is Thomas. Can you hear me?

Speaker 7

Yes, thanks. Yes.

Speaker 3

Yes, Thomas.

Speaker 5

We are seeing a significant revival and ramp up of utility scale projects mid to the end of 2024. And as also Sean and Jan has already outlined, the deployment through distribution channels should be finished by Q1, latest by Q2 next year. You obviously need distribution companies to reorder and restart ordering for the beginning and Q2 next year. So once the inventory has been deployed in the residential channel and some rooftop markets, we are seeing customers coming back and reordering products in anticipation of a pretty strong 2024 U. S.

Speaker 5

Market.

Speaker 7

Okay, Great. Thank you for the color guys and taking all the questions. I'll pass it on.

Operator

Our next question comes from the line of Brian Lee with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 8

Hey guys, how's it going? Thanks for taking the questions. Maybe a few follow ups to Phil's questions around guidance. I'm just trying to triangulate here Some of the moving pieces for Q4. So maybe if you could help us out just the 14% 15% gross margin guidance.

Speaker 8

What does that embed for CSI Solar? Is it up flat, down? And is your base of reference reported 16.6% or is it the adjusted 18.5 Are there other inventory write downs you're anticipating for Q4 in CSI Sole? And maybe just what's the gross margin The direction or range you'd expect for that segment in Q4?

Speaker 2

Hi, Brian. Good to hear you again. Actually, I would like to introduce a new person. Well, actually, he is not new. Yes, he's been with us for many years.

Speaker 2

Kellogg, our financial controller. Now, Kellogg, do you want to share Right.

Speaker 7

Yes.

Speaker 2

So the outlook will be driven primarily by CSI Solar, so that is the basis for our present outlook. In terms of the range of guidance, that just It will reflect the sensitivity we have towards the market right now in terms of The price and our inventory level, etcetera.

Speaker 8

Okay, fair enough. Maybe asking it a different way, it sounds like you're inferring that Q4 is going to be largely driven by CSI Solar and so recurrent, it's Pretty light revenues in Q3 if we presume recurrent doesn't grow significantly in Q4. I guess the math would just imply that ASPs, which were like low $0.20 per watt this quarter reported, Would be like $0.17 or $0.18 per watt in Q4? Or do we Are we wrong in assuming that recurrent is not growing much in Q4? Just trying to triangulate the pricing, I guess, because I have a follow-up question around the implications for 2024 guidance.

Speaker 4

Your

Speaker 2

Estimation is in a ballpark. Recurrent is not growing much for this next quarter. I want to explain in a different way. Recurrent is shifting from develop and flip to develop and hold project. So recurrent is growing, but they are not selling project.

Speaker 2

We think we have been leaving too much money on the table by selling the project Just after or before COD, we think our projects are very valuable And the connection points are also very valuable. And you're not going to see this kind of PPA or This kind of connection point anymore. So we think that by holding those projects, though the value will grow. So I just want to correct that recurrent is growing because the pipeline is growing.

Speaker 8

Okay. Thank you, Sean. That makes a lot of sense. And I have a follow-up question on that. But maybe just quickly to Round out this line of questioning.

Speaker 8

If you're kind of, let's call it, high teens ASP per watt, Exiting 2023, what's sort of your big picture view around 2024 Given we're still going through some destocking and it doesn't sound like you're going to have meaningful shipment growth Maybe until the back half of the year that's what you seem to infer to an earlier question. So ASPs flat, Down modestly like what kind of what's your big picture view off of these levels for maybe the balance of 24?

Speaker 2

Hi, Brian. As you know, we don't provide the 2024 margin over ASP guidance yet. So why don't we wait till March or May conference call And let's see whether we can share some of the numbers at that time.

Speaker 8

Okay, understood. Last one for me Sean and I'll pass it on. I did want to ask you kind of big picture strategy question as Recurrent is going to go into more of a it almost sounds like quasi IPP model. Wondering, can you give us a sense of what your average holding period, target holding period would sort of be like? And the reason I ask is, you're not generating free cash flow this year.

Speaker 8

And if CapEx is up More next year, presumably you may be in a tight free cash flow position next year as well and you're not selling these assets for upfront margin. So does it start to strain your cash flow or balance Sheet picture in terms of holding these projects longer, just kind of get a sense of the puts and takes and how you balance that? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Hi, Hui Feng. Do you can you answer this question?

Speaker 4

Yes. Yes, sure.

Speaker 5

Hi, Brian. Our leverage on the recurring energy side Has increased over the year because we are transiting into the build and hold model. But meanwhile, when we indicate our Strategy of holding assets, we have been approached by many financial partners. So we have options going forward, equity, partnership, all kind of form to grow our assets and also be a manager for those assets. So the future cash flow will be predictable, stable.

Speaker 5

So we are really in the transitional period, and that explains why the revenue number over the past few quarters But going forward, you will see the cadence will change. We'll accelerate the growth, Only more assets and only more cash flows. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Yes, Neil. Do you want to Some color?

Speaker 4

Sure. So look, you've been asking a couple of things. The first one was for how long we intend To hold the assets, I think that's heavily dependent on when is the optimum point of selling. So our intention is to retain for as long as we can and wait for opportunities if there are opportunities in the market to sell a portion of Bigger portfolios whenever conditions are good for the figures. But initially, we don't have A period to be holding, we are signing PPAs for 15 to 20 years.

Speaker 4

So the intention is to prepare the assets to be holding for the long run. And on How to get the equity? I think you can reply it perfectly. I mean, there are many ways to get the equity we need and we are perfectly aware of What it means batch wise in the shift, so everything is very well planned, I think.

Operator

And it looks like we have time for one more question. Our last question comes from the line of Praneeth Satish with Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 9

Thanks. Good morning. So I guess when you look at your end markets, we know DG BG demand, residential demand is weak, but I guess focusing more on the utility side, have you seen signs of slowdown on utility scale solar demand Given higher rates and then on the recurrent side, how are you seeing returns trending in the current market and what's the ability to pass The higher rates with higher PPAs, how much room is there for that?

Speaker 2

So I would I invite Yan to provide colors from the module vendor side, and then Ishmael can add more colors as a developer.

Speaker 3

Yes. Well, so The answer is on the demand side, we're seeing a strong potential demand next year because From our discussion with our many of the big utility skilled customers, A lot of those customers have a huge pipeline that are coming up, and Some of them are gets delayed into next year. So for various reasons and Pricing downtrend is one reason and some other reasons like delayed interconnection and some other permitting delays, But we know the pipeline is coming up next year. So that's a good sign.

Speaker 4

Yes, ma'am. Sure. Look on the interest rates and the ability to pass over The heat on the model, there are a couple of things that we need to understand. The interest rates are high right now, but we don't know for how long are they going to Say hi. Everybody is assuming in the modeling that sooner or later, they will refinance at a better rate.

Speaker 4

So you are having a hit right now, but it's not a hit for the life of the asset, while we are having reductions on the CapEx of the projects that stay there for the life of the asset because it's a one time investment. On the PPAs, We still see a very strong demand, and the dynamic of that market is different from the interest rates. It's basically We dominated by supply and demand. And because of the delays of interconnection, we still see that there is a significant shortage of good quality projects and off takers are generally struggling to secure all the PPAs they want to secure. So We've been canceling a couple of PPAs ourselves to sign better ones.

Speaker 4

And right now, the market is strong. That's all I can tell you right now.

Operator

And we have reached the end of with our question and answer session. I'll now turn the call back over to Chairman and CEO, Doctor. Sean Kew, for closing remarks.

Speaker 2

Thank you for joining us today and for your continued support. If you have any questions or would like to set up a call, please contact our Investor Relations team. Hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday with your families, and take good care.

Operator

This concludes today's conference and you may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

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