Masco Q3 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

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Provided by Quartr
October 29, 2024

Key Takeaways

  • Masco delivered a sixth consecutive quarter of margin expansion in Q3, with net sales flat year-over-year, gross margin up 90 bps to 36.7%, operating profit rising 3% to $360 million (18.2% margin), and EPS up 8% to $1.08.
  • The Plumbing segment grew sales 2% (1% ex-acquisitions/currency), drove operating profit up 8% to $242 million (19.9% margin), and launched new products including a tankless reverse osmosis system and a powder spray faucet while integrating the Sauna 360 acquisition.
  • In Decorative Architectural, Masco completed the sale of Kichler, saw sales decline 3% (1% ex-currency/divestitures), with DIY paint down mid-single digits offset by high-single-digit pro paint growth, and generated $138 million in operating profit at an 18.1% margin.
  • Masco returned $255 million to shareholders in Q3 via dividends and repurchases, and now plans to deploy approximately $750 million for share buybacks or bolt-on acquisitions in 2024 using proceeds from the Kichler sale.
  • The company lowered its full-year sales outlook to down low-single-digits due to the divestiture and DIY headwinds, but raised its operating margin guidance to ~17.5% and narrowed EPS guidance to $4.05–$4.15, while reaffirming strong R&R market fundamentals and long-term double-digit EPS growth targets.
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Earnings Conference Call
Masco Q3 2024
00:00 / 00:00

There are 14 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to Masco Corporation's 3rd Quarter 2024 Conference Call. My name is Luti, and I will be your operator for today's call. As a reminder, today's conference call is being recorded for replay purposes. I will now turn the call over to Robin Sandervan, Vice President, Investor Relations and FP and A of Masco Corp.

Operator

You may begin.

Speaker 1

Thank you, operator, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to Masco Corporation's 2024 Third Quarter Conference Call. With me today are Keith Allman, President and CEO of Masco and Rick Westenberg, Masco's Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Our Q3 earnings release and presentation slides are available on our website under Investor Relations. Following our remarks, we will open the call for analyst questions.

Speaker 1

Please limit yourself to one question with one follow-up. If we can't take your question now, please call me directly at 313-792-5500. Our statements today will include our views about our future performance, which constitute forward looking statements. These statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause our actual results to differ materially from the forward looking statements. We describe these risks and uncertainties in our risk factors and other disclosures in our Form 10 ks and our Form 10 Q that we filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Speaker 1

Our statements will also include non GAAP financial metrics. Our references to operating profit and earnings per share will be as adjusted unless otherwise noted. We reconcile these adjusted metrics to GAAP in our earnings release and presentation slides, which are available on our website under Investor Relations. With that, I will now turn the call over to Keith.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Robin. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. Please turn to slide 5. For the Q3, we delivered strong operating results as we focused on driving the full potential of our portfolio through leading brands, innovative products and exceptional customer service. Net sales were in line with the prior year as we saw demand continue to stabilize most notably in our Plumbing segment.

Speaker 2

Our gross profit margin rose 90 basis points to 36.7 percent as a result of our ongoing initiatives to drive operational efficiencies and achieve cost savings. Our solid execution resulted in operating profit of $360,000,000 an increase of $12,000,000 or 3% over the prior year. Our operating profit margin expanded 60 basis points to 18.2 percent, marking the 6th consecutive quarter of year over year margin expansion. In addition, our earnings per share grew 8% to $1.08 per share. Moving to our segments.

Speaker 2

Plumbing sales increased 2% overall and 1% excluding the impacts of acquisitions and currency. In local currency, North American Plumbing sales increased 2% overall and 1% excluding the impact of acquisitions. In International Plumbing, sales increased 3% in local currency led by growth in our key markets of Europe and China. Operating profit for the segment was up $17,000,000 to $242,000,000 Operating margin expanded 100 basis points to 19.9 percent driven by higher volumes and our continued focus on productivity, efficiency and cost savings initiatives. Additionally, we continue to demonstrate our leadership in water quality and innovation through new product launches that leverage our channels and brands.

Speaker 2

We launched a tankless reverse osmosis water filtration system this quarter across our Delta and Brizo brands. This system is certified to filter out more than 90 contaminants from your drinking water and is both easy to install and maintain. At Hansgrohe, we launched the powder spray faucet, where microfine water cascades from beneath the faucet spout for easier washing of foods like fruits and vegetables at a lower flow rate for water conservation and less cleanup. Hansgrohe also received the Super Brand Germany Award in the quarter. This prestigious award recognized Hansgrohe's dedication to excellence, quality and service to our customers.

Speaker 2

Finally, we reached the 1 year anniversary of our acquisition of Sauna 360 during the quarter. We are proud of the work our team has done to successfully integrate this business, which includes the recent launch of Tilo branded saunas into our existing Watkins dealer network. Moving to our Decorative Architectural segment. We announced earlier this quarter the completion of the sale of Kichler Lighting. We are confident that this transaction to further streamline our portfolio will drive greater value for Masco shareholders as we focus on the strategic initiatives of our core plumbing and decorative architectural businesses.

Speaker 2

Sales in the decorative architectural segment decreased 3% in the quarter or 1% excluding the impact of currency and divestitures. Overall paint sales were down low single digits. DIY paint sales remained challenged, decreasing mid single digits, while propaint sales continued to show strength, growing high single digits. Operating profit for the segment decreased $6,000,000 to $138,000,000 while operating margin remained strong at 18.1%. We were pleased once again this quarter with our performance in propane.

Speaker 2

We're proud of our continued sales growth with the propane and we are continuing to invest to drive additional growth going forward. We have an incredibly strong relationship with The Home Depot, which dates back over 40 years. For multiple decades, we have partnered with The Home Depot to distribute our products in their over 2,300 stores. We continue to partner with them on strategic initiatives centered on the strength of our brand, our unmatched service and the award winning quality of our products to drive share gains in both DIY and propane categories. Turning to capital allocation.

Speaker 2

We continue to generate strong free cash flow during the quarter and maintained a solid balance sheet. As a result, we executed on our capital deployment strategy and returned $255,000,000 to shareholders through dividends and share repurchases. We plan to deploy the net cash proceeds from the sale of Kichler Lighting consistent with our capital allocation framework. Therefore, we now expect to allocate approximately $750,000,000 in total to share repurchases or acquisitions in 2024. Now a few comments on our full year outlook.

Speaker 2

Overall, sales for the total company were within our expected range for the 1st 3 quarters of the year. However, the divestiture of Kichler will impact the remainder of our year and the DIY paint market remains challenged. Therefore, we now anticipate that sales for the full year will be down low single digits compared to our previous expectations of plus or minus low single digits. However, due to the strength of our operational performance year to date, we now expect that our full year operating margin will be approximately 17.5%, which is at the top end of our previously guided range of 17% to 17.5%. We now anticipate adjusted earnings per share for 2024 to be in the range of $4.05 to $4.15 per share compared to our previous expectations of $4.05 to $4.20 per share.

Speaker 2

We continue to believe that the long term fundamentals of our repair and remodel markets are strong and that Okay. I apologize for that interruption. I know that we're

Speaker 3

all very busy today. There's a

Speaker 2

lot of calls that seem to be gone. So my apologies. As I was talking with respect to the long term fundamentals of our repair and remodel markets. We believe they're strong and that structural factors such as the age of housing stock, consumers staying in their homes longer, higher home equity levels and household formations for millennials will drive increased repair and remodel activity in the mid to long term. We believe we're well positioned to capitalize on future volume as our capacity, efficiency, productivity and cost structures are set up to drive favorable incremental benefits from additional volume.

Speaker 2

With these favorable fundamentals, the continued successful execution of our strategic initiatives across our portfolio and our disciplined capital deployment, we are well positioned to outperform the competition and deliver double digit EPS growth through cycles for our investors. Now I'll turn the call over to Rick to go over our Q3 results and 2024 outlook in more detail.

Speaker 4

Rick?

Speaker 3

Thank you, Keith, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining. As Robin mentioned, my comments today will focus on adjusted performance, excluding the impact of rationalization charges and other one time items. Turning to Slide 7, sales in the quarter were in line with the prior year and increased 1% excluding the unfavorable impact of currency. Our acquisition of Sauna 360 in the Q3 of last year added 1% of growth to our Q3 results.

Speaker 3

However, this was offset by the impact of our Kichler divestiture during the Q3. In local currency, North American sales were in line with the prior year, while international sales increased 3% in local currency. Despite relatively flat sales overall, our initiatives to drive operational efficiencies contributed to another quarter of strong gross margin performance at 36.7%, an expansion of 90 basis points year over year. SG and A as a percent of sales was 18.6 percent and was impacted by the timing of marketing spend in our Decorative Architectural segment as mentioned during our Q2 call. Overall, our operating profit grew $12,000,000 $360,000,000 in the quarter and our margin was strong at 18.2%.

Speaker 3

Our margin performance was primarily driven by executing on our cost savings initiative. We also grew EPS during the quarter by 8% to $1.08 per share. Turning to Slide 8, plumbing sales increased 2% in the 3rd quarter. Currency had a minimum impact on the results. Volume in our Plumbing segment drove an increase in sales of 2% and acquisitions contributed 1% to growth year over year.

Speaker 3

This was partially offset by unfavorable mix, which reduced sales by 1%. North American plumbing sales increased 2% driven by our acquisition and solid performance in the retail and e commerce channels. In local currency, international plumbing sales increased 3% driven by favorable volume and pricing actions, partially offset by unfavorable mix. Demand continues to show signs of stabilizations in Europe and while the China market remains challenged, we benefited from our pipeline of projects in the quarter. Segment operating profit in the Q3 was $242,000,000 up $17,000,000 or 8% year over year.

Speaker 3

And operating margin was 19.9%, up 100 basis points. This operating profit performance was driven primarily by cost savings initiatives and higher volumes, partially offset by unfavorable mix and higher commodity and freight costs. Turning to Slide 9. Decorative Architectural sales decreased 3% in the 3rd quarter. Currency and the divestiture of Kichler lowered sales by 1% each.

Speaker 3

In the quarter, total paint sales decreased low single digits. Propane sales were up high single digits and DIY paint sales decreased mid single digits. The DIY paint market remains soft and we now anticipate our full year DIY paint business to be down high single digits versus our previous expectation of down mid single digits. In our Pro Paint business, however, we continue to expect sales for the year to increase low single digits. Operating profit was $138,000,000 and operating margin was 18.1%.

Speaker 3

Operating profit was down $6,000,000 year over year, impacted by the timing of marketing spend, and unfavorable price cost relationship and lower volume, partially offset by cost savings initiatives. Turning to Slide 10. Our balance sheet remains strong with gross debt to EBITDA at 2 times at quarter end. We ended the quarter with $1,600,000,000 of liquidity, including cash and availability under our revolving credit facility. Working capital as a percent of sales was 16.4% and reflects the impact of the divestiture of Kichler as well as our continued discipline with regards to our working capital levels.

Speaker 3

As a result of the divestiture impact, we now anticipate our working capital as a percent of sales to be approximately 16% at year end versus our previous guidance of 16.5%. During the Q3, we repurchased 2,500,000 shares for $192,000,000 and paid a dividend of $63,000,000 to shareholders. As Keith mentioned, we plan to deploy the net proceeds from the sale of Kichler consistent with our capital allocation framework. As a result, we now expect to deploy approximately $750,000,000 up from $600,000,000 during the year towards share repurchases or acquisitions. Now let's turn to Slide 11 and review our outlook for 2024.

Speaker 3

For total Masco, our year to date top line has largely been in line with expectations. Last quarter, we updated our second half expectations to roughly flat as market conditions remain challenged. The Q4, however, will also now be impacted by our divestiture of Kichler. As a result, we currently anticipate full year sales to be down low single digit versus our previous guide of plus or minus low single digit. Despite this change, with our strong execution and operating margin performance year to date, we now expect full year operating margin to be approximately 17.5%, which is at the high end of our previous guide of approximately 17% to 17.5%.

Speaker 3

In our Plumbing segment, we are maintaining our top line expectation of full year 2024 sales to be plus or minus low single digits versus prior year and our expected full year operating margin to be approximately 19%. In our Decorative Architectural segment, we are lowering our 2024 sales expectation to be down mid single digits year over year versus our previous guidance of down low single digits, primarily due to our divestiture. In addition, the DIY paint market remains soft and has not shown signs of a material rebound. However, despite lower expected sales, we are maintaining our anticipated full year operating margin of approximately 18%. Finally, as Keith mentioned earlier, we are updating our 2024 EPS estimate to be in the range of $4.05 to $4.15 per share.

Speaker 3

This assumes a 219,000,000 average diluted share count for the year and a 24.5% effective tax rate. As mentioned, there continues to be choppiness in the overall market. That said, we are focused on execution and controlling what we can control to deliver results within this range. Lastly, additional financial assumptions for 2024 can be found on Slide 14 of our earnings deck. With that, I would like to open up the call for questions.

Speaker 3

Operator?

Operator

Thank you. During the Q and A session. Your first question comes from the line of Susan Maklari with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.

Speaker 5

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. My first question is focusing in on the DIY weakness that you highlighted in Decorative Architectural. Can you just talk a bit about how those sales trended through the quarter? How you're thinking about the implications of perhaps the election and the broader macro uncertainty?

Speaker 5

And as we get past some of that, how you think things there could come back as we look over the next couple of quarters?

Speaker 2

Susan, it's Keith. Good morning. As you know, we really don't break down inside the quarter month to month performances as that can be quite variable depending particularly on year over year and what happened with regards to new product launches, infill of stock, etcetera. So I would tell you that it's been fairly consistent through the quarter and that there wasn't any particular notable change within the quarter. So I'll speak to that in that fashion.

Speaker 2

With regards to the election, we don't really view the election or how the results go specifically as it relates to DIY pain. We think of it more holistically about what that means for our overall business. And fundamentally, I think like so many issues that we face in a volatile environment like we have now, it really puts a premium on the ability to respond both in terms of our supply chains and our commercial teams, the ability for us to get price if needed based on the strength of our innovation pipeline and the strength of our brands and how we are doing with regards to overall shelf space and market share. So it's really for us a in terms of the election, a question of how well we're able to respond. And I think if you look at the various challenges that we've experienced with our team and our operating system over the course of the last several years, whether you look to the capacity issues in paint that we faced a couple of years ago, whether you look to the tariff situation that we faced and how we've brought in our margin up above pre tariff levels where we sit today.

Speaker 2

I think all those things point to the fact that our portfolio of small ticket, more resilient, less volatile products together with our team and our operating system has put us in a position we're able to respond. So we're really looking at the election of as just being on high alert and being ready to respond to the challenges that may or may not come our way.

Speaker 5

Okay. That's helpful color. Thank you. And then turning to the margin, despite all the uncertainty that's out there, it's impressive to see the consolidated expectations at the higher end of the guide. Can you just talk to some of those factors that you noted around the company specific initiatives?

Speaker 5

And how we should be

Operator

thinking about those continuing to

Speaker 5

come through as we think about year end and maybe even into next year?

Speaker 2

Sure. We're definitely pleased with our margin performance. It's come in as expected. And this was our 6th as we said in the prepared remarks, this was our 6th consecutive quarter of margin expansion. And it has been executed in a volatile environment.

Speaker 2

So I think again that goes back to what we intended when we designed our portfolio to be less resilient or excuse me more resilient, less cyclical, higher margin. So it's that combination of a robust portfolio, the operating system and our teams. We got particularly strong gross margin performance and of course that's really from our focus on operational excellence, cost savings initiatives. And yes, 17.5% strong for us and it's at the top end of our range. We expect the full year margins to expand for the entire company and for both our Plumbing and Decorative segments and we certainly will carry that momentum into next year.

Speaker 5

Okay. Thank you for the color and good luck with everything.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Susan.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Michael Rehaut with JPMorgan. Please go ahead.

Speaker 6

Hi, everyone. Thank you for taking my questions. This is Andrew Ozzie on for Michael Rehaut. Good morning. I just wanted to ask maybe, I believe your 2026 targets were predicated on a 3% to 5% R and R growth rate for the next couple of years.

Speaker 6

Is that kind of still the right way to think about it? And maybe at high level, maybe if we can get your thoughts on the repair and remodel end market for next year?

Speaker 2

Sure. Thanks, Andrew. We when you think about that more normalized 3% to 5% growth rate for R and R, we have not changed that. That is our expectation of what a normal or historical growth rate for R and R is and we still expect that. Certainly, when this market turns to that normal rate of growth is up for debate and our crystal ball is no clearer than anyone else.

Speaker 2

And that, as I said earlier today puts a premium on our ability to respond quickly and we've demonstrated that we have that capability. So we haven't changed our expectations of what the R and R market is. We think the fundamentals are very strong when you look at mid to long term of what drives R and R. It's about home equity, it's about home price appreciation, it's about consumer confidence. And so when those things start to turn and we think when you see the reduction in rates and when you think about the under built or the deferred R and R spend in the deferral state that we're in, we're poised in the mid to long term.

Speaker 2

It's just unpredictable of when that will turn. We're not changing our 2026 expectations or guide, if you will.

Speaker 6

Thank you. I appreciate that color. And then maybe in terms of the propane business, it's nice to see it being pretty resilient obviously in the past few quarters. Can you kind of review, maybe the current size of the business and how we should think about the growth opportunity going forward?

Speaker 2

We're very pleased with the growth in propane and our ability to gain share and to hold that share. And that goes back to the strength of the Behr brand, the strength of our deep relationship with our great channel partner in Home Depot and the 40 years that we've been working together. As we mentioned, Certainly, our innovation pipeline, the quality in the can and how well recognized that is. And when we gain share and we look at the net promoter score of our new customers in the pro side or customers who have increased their share of our buy, the net promoter scores are fantastic. So try as you like us sort of thing and that's really what's happening.

Speaker 2

So we're very happy with the our performance in pro. Andrew, what was the second part of your question?

Speaker 6

I suppose kind of like the size of the business and how we should think about the growth opportunity maybe even alongside DIY going forward.

Speaker 2

Right. It's approximately $900,000,000 in terms of the size of our propane market. And we expect to continue to grow above market and gain share going forward.

Speaker 6

Is that on the above market growth? Is that kind of on the DIY and Pro or just on the Pro?

Speaker 2

We believe and it's hard to judge particularly DIY market size from 1 quarter to quarter as I have consistently said on these calls. But we believe we are holding our own and holding our share in the DIY market maybe gaining a little bit, but the DIY market continues to be challenged.

Speaker 6

Thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Stephen Kim with Evercore ISI. Please go ahead.

Speaker 7

Hi, this is Atish on for Steve. Thanks for taking my questions. I just want to start with within DeckArk, it was mentioned the updated sales guide primarily was due to the divestiture of Kichler. But turning to the margin piece, how much of a benefit would you say to the current margin guidance is due to the divestiture of Kichler?

Speaker 3

Yes. Hi, Atish. Good morning. Hi, Amit. This is Rick.

Speaker 3

So with regards to as you indicated, the sale of Kichler translated into us revising our guidance downward with regards to our top line, down to mid single digits for the Decorative Architectural Products segment as well as for total mass go down low single digits. We don't disclose individual profitability by business unit. We have indicated in the past that Kichler's margin performance was below that of the segment and below that of Masco overall. So the divestiture is accretive. We haven't quantified it, but I would say that our increase in our margin expectations really further through the course of the year because as you may recall, we came into the year with an expectation of about 17% operating profit margin.

Speaker 3

We increased that a couple of times through the course of the year and now we're expecting 17.5% operating profit margins for the year. And yes, Kichler is a contributing factor to that. But I would say equal or more than that is our operating performance across the business units and being able to continue to deliver the productivity and the cost efficiencies that Keith alluded to, to be able to deliver operating profit margin expansion in the face of a challenging market.

Speaker 7

Great. That's super helpful. Just one more. Then just talking about for the paint category overall, can you talk about the mix effect? And then specifically within DIY, are you seeing any trade up or trade down trends within the category?

Speaker 7

Thanks.

Speaker 2

Not really much in paint. We saw a little bit of mix impact in plumbing in the quarter. But no, in paint, we've worked really hard across our portfolio, across the assortment, across our channels, etcetera, to work to reduce the variability in our margin. There's still some that exists, but we've done a particularly good job in paint and we really haven't seen them with our broad assortment in terms of price point coverage, we really haven't seen a significant mix hit in coatings.

Speaker 7

Great. Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Trevor Allison with Wolfe Research. Please go ahead.

Speaker 8

Hey, good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. The first one on DIY paint, clearly that's based on headwinds over the last few years following some really strong performance during the pandemic. Do you think that market has reset to the point where moving forward you expect it would grow in line with the overall R and R market?

Speaker 2

I don't know that I'd say that it would grow in line with the overall R and R market. But when you think about how in the past that it has been a declining sub segment for us in terms of DIY, I do believe that's going to turn around and go to growth. And I think it's because of the fundamentals. When you look at the influx of millennials that are forming households and getting into the housing market, the healthy levels of home equity that continue to be a support investment into your home and the DIY position, the fact that we know through our research that millennials are not only DIYers, but they're repeat DIYers as we follow them over the last couple of years. So we do think that there will be a return to growth in DIY paint.

Speaker 2

The question is when.

Speaker 8

Right. Yes, that makes sense. Okay. And then on Kichler, clearly had an outsized exposure to China imports for a relatively small size of the business. You gave a rough framework on your last call about your China import exposure.

Speaker 8

I would assume that that improves here with the Kitchener divestiture. Any way you can roughly frame your updated exposure to Chinese imports post the sale? Thanks.

Speaker 2

Yes. I would tell you that from a concentration perspective as it relates to the revenue, Kitchell had a higher concentration of Chinese imports than the other portions of our business. But it's relatively small when you look at the overall scheme of things.

Speaker 3

Yes. George, maybe just to dimension a bit, I think you alluded to the fact that we commented in our Q2 earnings call that since the Section 301 tariffs were implemented in 2019, we've reduced our exposure as a total mass grow enterprise by about 30%. With the divestiture of Kichler, that takes us up closer to 40% in terms of a reduction of our exposure. It still leaves a significant exposure, but we've done a lot of work and we continue to do a lot of work in terms of our sourcing footprint to continue to mitigate and manage that exposure.

Speaker 8

Okay. That's very helpful. Appreciate the color there and good luck moving forward.

Speaker 3

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of John Lovallo with UBS. Please go ahead.

Speaker 4

Hey, guys. Good morning. This is actually Spencer Coffman on for John. Thank you for the questions. The first one, you talked a fair amount about how the DIY paint market continues to be challenged.

Speaker 4

How much lower are DIY paint volumes today relative to 2019 levels?

Speaker 2

Well, I don't have that number top of mind. I know they are slightly lower, but I don't have that actual number top of mind. I can get to that after the call.

Speaker 4

Okay. No problem. And now that the PPG has announced the sale of its architectural coatings business to AIP, how closely did NASHCO look at these assets? Did you engage in the bidding process? And can you talk a little bit about your decision to just not pursue those assets more aggressively?

Speaker 4

Was there a conflict with your strategy with Home Depot? Or how should we think about how this played out?

Speaker 3

Of course, we looked at it. We looked at it in-depth and

Speaker 2

we gave it a hard analytics. But at the end of the day, we have to make decisions that we believe will be the long term interest of our shareholder value. And this wasn't a fit for us. I'm not going to go into details beyond that. I'll tell you, we've competed against BPG and others in the industry that are very strong and we're confident in our ability to continue to do so successfully.

Speaker 2

And this acquisition just wasn't something that we were interested in.

Speaker 3

Fair enough. Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Matthew Bouley with Barclays. Please go ahead.

Speaker 9

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking the questions. So the in Plumbing, the good margin result despite the higher commodity and freight. I guess, I'm curious if commodity and freight costs have if they have indeed actually come in as a greater headwind than what you initially thought. And as a result, if you've offset those by more either cost reductions or price?

Speaker 9

And then specifically, as we kind of get into 2025, is there should we think about any need for additional price to be taken in

Speaker 2

the plumbing segment? Thank you.

Speaker 3

Sure. This is Rick. And I guess to provide a bit of a timeline for commodity and freight overall, we came into the calendar year not expecting it to be a significant headwind or tailwind. Obviously, as we all saw in Q2, the appreciation of commodity costs, namely copper and zinc, go up significantly. Actually copper, as we may recall, hit an all time high in May at over $5 per pound.

Speaker 3

And that is when we commented in our Q2 call that would represent a headwind with regards to our second half results. And that's because as we commented before, it takes about 6 months between when we observe commodity costs in the market until they hit our P and L as they flow through the sourcing and inventory pipeline. And so we're seeing that headwind. And as we indicated, we are unfavorable from a price cost perspective in Q3 and we expect that to continue in Q4. And that is in line with our expectations as we came out of the Q2 call.

Speaker 3

And that's pretty locked in right now in terms of our expectations. That's dialed into our guidance for the year. And despite those headwinds, in terms of the commodity costs, we are actually through the cost initiatives and the pricing during the course of the year able to offset that from an overall margin perspective. And thus we're expanding our margins in plumbing, 100 basis points in this quarter and we would expect margin expansion in Q4 and for the calendar year in plumbing. Now commodity costs have subsided a bit more recently, but they still remain elevated.

Speaker 3

They remain elevated to 2023. They remain elevated relative to historical levels. And so that's a factor as we go into 2025 and that will factor into our pricing strategy as we go into next year.

Speaker 9

Okay. Thank you for that Rick. Very helpful color. And then secondly, I think going back to a prior question that was around your 3% to 5% longer term market growth. I wanted to ask specifically on 2025 as we kind of sit here in Q3.

Speaker 9

Looking ahead, kind of given how we're exiting the year around DIY and R and R overall, Just any kind of initial thoughts on what 2025 R and R could look like? What you're planning for? And sort of any implications to how we're starting 2025 relative to how you're planning the

Speaker 2

year to shape up? Thank you. Appreciate the question, but we'll talk about 2025 on our next call when we're together next. I would leave you with a thought that I've been consistently talking about with regards to the fundamentals. We think the fundamentals are strong in our industry, but we'll get to the specific 2025 in our next call.

Speaker 10

Okay. Thanks, Keith. Good luck, guys.

Speaker 3

Thank you.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Your

Operator

next question comes from the line of Phil Ng with Jefferies. Please go ahead.

Speaker 10

Hey guys. Hey Keith, when I look at your Plumbing business, I think last quarter you were generally constructive on an inflection in North America, maybe thought international is bottoming out a little bit, but that recovery could be a little slower. International was actually quite strong. So can you talk about what are you seeing in both these markets? And obviously, no one's got a crystal ball, but how do you kind of see the recovery in the pace and the momentum in these 2 sub segments within plumbing?

Speaker 2

So starting with international Phil, pleased with the performance. We grew 3% in the Q3. In this kind of market environment that really speaks to Hans Jurgen and his team at Hansgrohe and what they've been able to accomplish. I would characterize it as particularly in Europe is showing signs of stability in our key markets particularly in Germany. China is a bit more volatile.

Speaker 2

We were able to deliver growth in the quarter. And again that speaks to the team and the ability to gain share and the strong pipeline of trade projects that we have that continue to flow through. So we expect international in aggregate to be down low to mid single digits for the full year. That said this is a good opportunity for us to outperform the market and gain share and that's what we plan on doing. In the United States, close to home here, we're seeing good e commerce market.

Speaker 2

The market continues to, we believe, grow a little bit there. Our retail performance has been quite strong in the U. S. As well. The trade, I would say, is a little bit more challenged, but fundamentally stable in North America.

Speaker 10

Okay, super. On your pro side for paint, great growth outperformed the market. As you kind of work with your channel partner, any other growth initiatives that you have slated for perhaps next year, maybe more shelf space? And then just given some of the weakness you've seen in DIY, do your lines have the ability to kind of swing production from DIY to more propane just because you're seeing certainly more momentum there?

Speaker 2

We do. And that's a key component of our whole strategy to be less cyclical, more resilient, higher margin that is to work on margin differentials across channels, to work on margin differentials across our assortment and to be able to flex our capacity should the demand go from one type of channel or installation process to another. Yes, we absolutely have that flexibility. And we have a new plant coming online very nicely in Heath, Ohio. So that's really what puts this portfolio in good shape.

Speaker 2

We have capacity to support our expected growth for several years. And even with that available capacity, we're able to produce very strong margins. So when the turnaround in the market does occur, we're in a position to meet demand and also deliver some very nice drop downs on that incremental volume. So yes, we have the capacity to our capacity is flexible. In terms of what we're doing to drive propane, our recipe is working.

Speaker 2

And the more pros that try it, the more pros that like it and we've shown that we're able to maintain and have that share gain be sticky. So things like buy online, pick up in store, expanding delivery options, expanding our outside sales force, enhancing loyalty programs. We're working very closely with our channel partners to continue to grow this segment and we're doing a good job at it, I believe.

Speaker 10

Okay. Appreciate all the great color.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Keith Hughes with Truist. Please go ahead.

Speaker 11

Thank you. With the divestiture of Kichler, I know you still are looking for M and A as part of your use of cash flow. But will we continue to see bolt on transactions in plumbing products, maybe things or something like that in the coverings market? Or would you look something a little further afield in terms of future activity?

Speaker 3

Yes, Keith, good morning. It's Rick. So from an M and A perspective, our strategy is pretty consistent and clear. We are focused primarily on bolt on acquisition opportunities, really within our plumbing, coatings or wellness businesses. So that's really our focus and we've demonstrated that with, for example, the Sauna 360 transaction that we anniversaried this quarter.

Speaker 3

But that's what you would expect to see from us. We're not averse to a bigger transaction, but that would be still within one of our core business segments.

Speaker 11

Okay. And one follow-up, when did Kichler close?

Speaker 3

September 18.

Speaker 10

Okay. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Sure.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Mike Dahl with RBC Capital. Please go ahead.

Speaker 12

It's actually Chris Clough on for Mike. Just a follow-up on the M and A. Given your pipeline today, is it safe to assume the most likely outcome for Kinsta proceeds will be share buybacks at this time?

Speaker 3

We haven't announced any particular thing from an M and A perspective. So absent an announcement from our perspective, yes, we would follow our capital allocation framework and the proceeds would be allocated to share buybacks. So just to clarify, we had about $150,000,000 of net proceeds. So that increased our capacity for share buybacks or acquisitions from $600,000,000 to $750,000,000 for the year.

Speaker 12

Got it. Understood. And then just shifting over to thick arc and paint margins specifically, could you just kind of give us a bit more color on how overall core paint margins performed relative to your expectations, kind of where we are in the price cost relationship and in terms of the timing shift in marketing spend and cost savings? Just a little bit more color on expectations for next quarter and how it trends to date kind of compared relative to your expectations?

Speaker 3

Sure. From a Decorative Architectural Products segment perspective, our expectation first of all, we delivered what we would consider strong margins in the quarter at 18.1%. And we reaffirmed our guidance in terms of margins for the year at 18 approximately 18%. Effectively what that is driven based off of is cost performance within our businesses, within the Decorative Architectural Products segment, because we are facing a negative price cost relationship. So as we've mentioned before, pricing in our Decorative Architectural Products segment is expected to be down low single digit.

Speaker 3

Our commodity dynamic is roughly flat. We are seeing some pressure from a commodity input perspective, TiO2 and resin. But largely this year, our expectation is flat. So therefore, our price cost expectation for the year and what we saw this quarter was down low single digits. So we're basically offsetting that headwind with regards with our cost savings initiatives and expecting modest operating profit margin expansion this year versus last year.

Speaker 3

Hopefully that addresses your question.

Speaker 10

It does. Thank you. Appreciate that.

Speaker 3

Sure.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Garik Shmois with Loop Capital. Please go ahead.

Speaker 11

Hi, thanks. I wanted to ask on propane and follow-up on your share gain there. For at least this year, are you gaining shelf space? Is that the basis of your share gains? Or is the outperformance really coming against the broader market?

Speaker 2

It's against the broader market, I would say. Shelf space is really not that critical of an item. But when you're talking about the Pro segment, we've got sufficient and appropriate shelf space. No real change in it. It's more about our offering, our ease of doing business, the quality of the installation, the ease of the installation and the customer and consumer pull that comes from that strong beer brand and our innovation.

Speaker 2

So those are all more of the determining factors and our sales force effectiveness, of course, than shelf space per se.

Speaker 11

Okay. Thanks. And kind of want to shift gears to some of the smaller parts of your portfolio on the wellness side. I was wondering what you're seeing there considering it's a little bit more of a bigger ticket offering that you provide.

Speaker 3

Yes, sure. It's Rick. We are seeing relative stability. Effectively, we don't disclose wellness performance in and of itself, but we're seeing stability. And the performance has been in line with our overall Plumbing segment.

Speaker 3

So in Q2, we saw some growth in wellness as we disclosed in our prior call. And we're seeing similar performance in Q3. Largely, I would consider it flattish. Now keep in mind, in our wellness business, we did acquire Sauna 360. So we're seeing the benefit inorganically in terms of growth year over year.

Speaker 3

But from an organic perspective, we're seeing rough stability and improvement. So we're optimistic about the business, particularly going forward. We think the business is really well positioned in terms of its product offering, its complementary products now with Asanas, with the acquisition of Asana 360. And we continue to gain share in the market. So we're well positioned when the market does turn around.

Speaker 3

But today, I would characterize it as stable.

Speaker 11

Great. I appreciate that. Thanks.

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Anthony Pettinari with Citigroup. Please go ahead.

Speaker 13

Hi, good morning. This is Gregory on for Anthony this morning. A lot has been discussed already, but maybe just one on Plumbing. So thinking about Plumbing volume, you spoke about solid performance in retail and e commerce channels. I'm wondering if you can kind of discuss what you've seen in wholesale and trade, specifically where sentiment is and kind of your thoughts on inventories in that channel relative to historical norms for this time of the year?

Speaker 2

Inventories are really right where they typically would be. Certainly, Q3 is generally a strong quarter for us in terms of that segment and there are some inventory fluctuations associated with that. So I would say inventories are where they need to be accounting for seasonal variation, no real change there. The trade segment was down a little bit, feeling a little bit of pressure and the sentiment as I talk to our customers in trade is really the same sentiment that we all share across the whole portfolio, which is this is a volatile market. It's certainly stable in trade.

Speaker 2

There's nothing that particularly concerns the channel from the folks that I talk to other than the fact that it's unpredictable. And the question is when will this turn. There is very much optimism in terms of the overall fundamentals And we're putting a premium and having the inventories in the right spot and being able and ready to respond with capacity. That's how I would characterize the trade channel.

Speaker 13

Understood. Thank you, Mr. Almond.

Speaker 2

Mr. Almond is my dad. He didn't call me Keith.

Operator

And there are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn it back to Robin Sanderband for closing remarks.

Speaker 1

We'd like to thank all of you for joining us on the call this morning and for your interest in Masco. You and have a wonderful day.

Operator

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you all for participating. You may now disconnect.

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