NASDAQ:KINS Kingstone Companies Q4 2023 Earnings Report $17.87 +0.21 (+1.19%) Closing price 05/2/2025 04:00 PM EasternExtended Trading$17.58 -0.29 (-1.62%) As of 05/2/2025 06:20 PM Eastern Extended trading is trading that happens on electronic markets outside of regular trading hours. This is a fair market value extended hours price provided by Polygon.io. Learn more. Earnings HistoryForecast Kingstone Companies EPS ResultsActual EPS$0.15Consensus EPS N/ABeat/MissN/AOne Year Ago EPSN/AKingstone Companies Revenue ResultsActual Revenue$36.61 millionExpected RevenueN/ABeat/MissN/AYoY Revenue GrowthN/AKingstone Companies Announcement DetailsQuarterQ4 2023Date3/27/2024TimeN/AConference Call DateThursday, March 28, 2024Conference Call Time8:30AM ETUpcoming EarningsKingstone Companies' Q1 2025 earnings is scheduled for Monday, May 12, 2025, with a conference call scheduled on Friday, May 9, 2025 at 8:30 AM ET. Check back for transcripts, audio, and key financial metrics as they become available.Conference Call ResourcesConference Call AudioConference Call TranscriptPress Release (8-K)Annual Report (10-K)Earnings HistoryCompany ProfilePowered by Kingstone Companies Q4 2023 Earnings Call TranscriptProvided by QuartrMarch 28, 2024 ShareLink copied to clipboard.There are 6 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Hello, and welcome to the Kingstone Companies Incorporated 4th Quarter and Full Year 2023 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to Karen Daly, Vice President of the Equity Group and Kingstone's Investor Relations representative. Karen, you may begin. Speaker 100:00:30Thank you, Kevin. Good morning, everyone. Joining us on the call today will be Chief Executive Officer, Merrill Golden and Chief Financial Officer, Jennifer Gravel. On behalf of the company, I would like to note that this conference call may include forward looking statements, which involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors that may cause actual results to be materially different from projected results. Forward looking statements speak only as of the date on which they are made and Kingstone undertakes no obligation to update the information discussed. Speaker 100:01:02For more information, please refer to the section entitled Factors That May Affect Future Results and Financial Condition in Part 1, Item 1A of the company's latest Form 10 ks. Additionally, today's remarks may include references to non GAAP measures. For a reconciliation of our non GAAP measures to GAAP figures, please see the tables in the latest earnings release. With that, it's my pleasure to turn the call over to Merrill Golden. Merrill, you may begin. Speaker 200:01:31Thanks, Karen, and good morning, everyone. As I reflect on my 1st 6 months serving as CEO of Kingstone, it has been a journey of immense learning and I am truly honored to have been entrusted to lead this great company. I want to thank our investors for your feedback leading to enhanced transparency and to inform you that we now have an investor presentation on our website with additional data that might be of interest. It has certainly taken longer than we had hoped to get it right, but I can proudly say that we have completed the turnaround and Kingstone has returned to profitability. We are thrilled to again be positioned for consistent profitability and growth. Speaker 200:02:23Our products are priced right, our policyholders are insured to value, business written in the Select product is producing a materially lower frequency than our legacy product indicating our advanced segmentation is working. And the reduction expense ratio gives us a competitive advantage at a time when there are few active competitors in the market. I could not be more enthusiastic about our future. Returning to profitability is not just a financial milestone. It's a reflection of our commitment to sound financial management and operational efficiency that has been unwavering. Speaker 200:03:06Our return to profitability is a product of the hard work, dedication and perseverance of every member of the Kingstone team. Our transformation journey has been marked by bold decisions and an intense focus on execution. The past few years have been a period of profound change, growth and adaptation. The benefits of Kingstone 2.0 and Kingstone 3.0 are now flowing through to our income statement and doing so at an accelerating rate. Our numbers now speak for themselves. Speaker 200:03:42You can see this in the 4th quarter results and it will become even more apparent in our overall results as the non core business continues to run off. I'm extremely optimistic about the results that Kingstone can deliver in 2024 and beyond. We have successfully taken a series of actions since year end 2022 that resulted in the rapid reduction in our non core business. At December 31, our non core premium declined by 40% and policies in force by 48% year over year. In the Q4, we obtained regulatory approval to withdraw from New Jersey in line with our strategy and feel confident that we will reduce our non core policies by 80% by the end of 2024, 2 years after starting this initiative. Speaker 200:04:38We continue to take rate to stay ahead of loss trends and inflation. During the quarter, we increased rates 20% in both our New York legacy and New Jersey homeowners products, in addition to rate changes in other states as well as increased replacement cost, so our policyholders continue to be insured to value. Our core legacy homeowner rate change was 24% for the full year. Our strategy to focus on our core business will allow us to continue deepening our producer relationships and to operate more profitably over time. To further strengthen our product offering and underwriting, this week we announced a partnership with Zojax, an InsurTech firm that specializes in flood prevention, which will help mitigate the risk of water damage for our policyholders. Speaker 200:05:36We managed our exposure to catastrophe reinsurance very conservatively by slowing our core new business, particularly those risks contributing most to our PML. And since the rates for catastrophe reinsurance did not spike as high as feared, the increase in catastrophe premiums was less than we planned for. During the quarter, we began lifting these new business restrictions, resulting in a higher new business growth rate on our core business, which is accelerating even faster in 2024. We also successfully completed the placement of our 2024 quota share treaty with improved terms. For 2024, we will see 27% of adjusted personal lines written premium, down from 30% in the prior year and will receive a higher ceding commission rate than last year as our reinsurance partners recognize the positive changes that we have made to our business. Speaker 200:06:40Before I turn the call over to Jen, I am pleased to share that for the first time in several years, we are sharing our expectations and providing initial guidance for full year 2024. I want to remind you that our results are very weather dependent and we have assumed no major currently have and that our reinsurance costs would stay flat at our July 1 renewal. With those assumptions, our guidance is as follows. We believe our core business direct written premium will grow between 12% 16% year over year and will achieve a GAAP combined ratio between $88,92, earnings per diluted share between $0.50 and $0.90 and return on equity between 15% 22%. Our improved results are the culmination of the initiatives that have already been successfully executed. Speaker 200:07:50So we are confident that the benefits will become increasingly apparent in our quarterly results going forward. Our margins are increasing due to our efforts to increase premiums. At the same time, the reduction in the non core business is improving our loss ratio and the company's expenses have been reduced materially. With that, I'll turn the call over to Jen to review our financial results. Take it away, Jen. Speaker 300:08:22Thank you, Merrill, and good morning, everyone. We're very pleased to report the profitability during the Q4, achieving a net income of $2,900,000 or $0.26 per diluted share. This is a very significant improvement from the same period last year when we saw a net loss of $4,000,000 or a loss of $0.37 per share. Core direct written premiums increased 7.1% to $47,000,000 while the non core business successfully declined 40.8% during the quarter. On a consolidation basis, direct premiums written decreased slightly with price increases and new business premium in our core business offset by our planned non core policy runoff. Speaker 300:09:05For the full year, direct premiums written were flat to the prior year period. Our 4th quarter combined ratio improved 24.4 points to 89.5%, primarily driven by a strong underwriting results coupled with lower catastrophe losses. The attritional loss ratio improved 7.3 points to 53.8 percent and catastrophe losses were 10.7 points lower than the prior year period. There was no development of prior year reserves for the quarter. Our expense ratio was generally in line with the prior year period at 32.7%. Speaker 300:09:45For the year, our combined ratio improved 8 points to 105.3%, the attritional loss ratio improved 2.9 points to 65.3%. Catastrophe losses were 0.4 points lower than full year of 2022 and there was no development of prior year reserves. Our expense ratio improved by 3.1 points to 32.9 percent. As outlined in our most recent shareholder letter from Merrell, we expect to receive further improvement in our expense ratio forecasting a 29% net expense ratio in 2024. Net income increased 3% and 21.7% for the Q4 and full year respectively. Speaker 300:10:30The increase was driven by higher interest rates earned on cash balances. And in regards to the improvement for the full year, there was a reversal of accrued interest income due to an accounting error in 2022. There was no correction necessary in 2023. Equity holdings including preferred shares, fixed income ETFs, mutual funds and a hedge fund investment increased by 1,500,000 dollars Bond holdings excluding those classified as held to maturity increased by $6,100,000 pre tax resulting in a 4 point $8,000,000 after tax increase to other comprehensive income and a $0.43 increase to book value per share. The effective duration of our fixed maturity securities is 4.1 years with an average yield of 3.58%. Speaker 300:11:23Book value at December 31, 2023 was $2.81 per diluted share and $3.80 excluding AOCI. We are very pleased with the progress we have made, leading to the return of equity of 9.7% during the Q4. As Merrill mentioned earlier, we believe we can achieve a return on equity of 15% to 22% for the full year 2024. And with that, we'll open it up for questions. Kevin? Operator00:11:51Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question and answer session. Our first question today is coming from John Old from Longmeadow Investors. Your line is now live. Speaker 400:13:01Thank you. Thanks, Merrill and Jen. What a year. Thank you. Congratulations. Speaker 200:13:07Thanks, John. Speaker 400:13:09Yes. So I'm just curious what level of I know you were talking about assuming no major storms, but what level of the sort of general cat amount are you assuming in 2024? And then I also thought it would be helpful for me and everyone else to understand that how much non cash depreciation, amortization and interest is embedded in the guidance because I think your depreciation and amortization is elevated due to the perfect spending you did on software projects and such that's bearing fruit, but a lot of that will go away over time. So if you could just add a little commentary there because I think your earnings are probably a little bit understated on a cash basis. Speaker 300:14:03John, let's start with Speaker 200:14:04the Sure. Speaker 300:14:05So Go ahead, Merrill. Speaker 500:14:07Sorry. Speaker 200:14:08Yes. So before I answer your question, John, I just want to correct Jen. When she was talking about net investment income, she said net income. And so it was investment income that she was talking about that increased 3% for the year. So to your question about cat, so we've included 7 points of CAT in the plan for 2024 And that is based on what our trailing 12 year or so history has been of what we call PCS events, so normal catastrophe events and not like major hurricanes. Speaker 200:14:48So 7 points are included in the forecast. Jen, do you want to take a shot at the non cash question? Speaker 300:14:58A lot of the I'm looking it up for you right now, John. I'm trying to find it in front of me here. Speaker 100:15:12Yes, I don't have the file looking in front Speaker 300:15:14of me, John. We're going to have to revert back to you on that one. Speaker 400:15:20Okay. But your depreciation and amortization, it's going down and it should keep going down because it's a most of it is a 3 year amortization, correct? So I mean a lot of that expense is going to go away over time. Speaker 300:15:36That is correct. That is correct. Speaker 400:15:39Yes. So that in itself is about a $0.20 kit that eventually would go away. I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. Thank you very much and appreciate all your hard work you guys have done. Speaker 200:15:51Thanks, John. We'll get back to you on a more clear answer. Operator00:15:56Yes, yes. Thank you. Next question today is coming from Gabriel Maklou, a Private Investor. Your line is now live. Speaker 500:16:09Hey, congrats, Merrill and Jennifer on a great quarter. Speaker 300:16:15Thanks, Gabe. Speaker 500:16:17Yes. I just had a couple of questions. 1, the diluted and basic shares, there's a gap now there that didn't exist before. So did the debt investor, did he exercise his warrants there or what happened there? Speaker 200:16:38So I'll take that, Jen. So no, the warrants are not yet exercised, but per GAAP, when you make a profit, there is a formula where you include some of the warrants in the share count. So that's the difference for the quarter. Speaker 500:16:57Okay. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. And then kind of going forward, I know it's really early, but inquiring minds want to know, how are you thinking about capital allocation priority now that we're starting to make some money, Merrill? Speaker 200:17:16Well, I would say that our top priority right now is our debt maturity. And as you know that, our we have $20,000,000 of debt that matures in at the end of the year. So we have 9 months to figure out what to do. So that is certainly our top priority in terms of capital allocation. Speaker 500:17:41Okay, good enough. And congrats again on the great quarter. Good luck. Thank you. Operator00:17:47Thank you. We've reached the end of our question and answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over to Merrill for any further or closing comments. Speaker 200:17:56Great. So thank you again for joining our call today. I want to express my deepest appreciation to our talented team members who have worked tirelessly through the various initiatives and to our producers, reinsurers and shareholders for your unwavering support. We're committed to delivering long term value to our shareholders and have a great day. Bye. Operator00:18:20Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.Read morePowered by Conference Call Audio Live Call not available Earnings Conference CallKingstone Companies Q4 202300:00 / 00:00Speed:1x1.25x1.5x2x Earnings DocumentsPress Release(8-K)Annual report(10-K) Kingstone Companies Earnings HeadlinesKingstone Companies: Results Confirm The Thesis, Selloff Presents OpportunitiesApril 25, 2025 | seekingalpha.comKingstone Companies, Inc: Kingstone Announces Renewal Rights Transaction to Grow Homeowners Insurance Business in Downstate New YorkApril 16, 2025 | finanznachrichten.deThink NVDA’s run was epic? You ain’t seen nothin’ yetAsk most investors and they’ll probably tell you Nvidia is the undisputed AI stock of the decade. In 2023, it surged 239%. And in 2024, it soared another 171% on the year… But what if I told you there was a way to target those types of “peak Nvidia” profit opportunities in 24 hours or less?May 4, 2025 | Timothy Sykes (Ad)Kingstone Companies (NASDAQ:KINS) shareholders have earned a 309% return over the last yearApril 15, 2025 | uk.finance.yahoo.comKingstone: Clean Turnaround But A Lot Of Value Already Priced InApril 14, 2025 | seekingalpha.comGrab These 4 Stocks With Solid Net Profit Margins to Boost ReturnsApril 10, 2025 | msn.comSee More Kingstone Companies Headlines Get Earnings Announcements in your inboxWant to stay updated on the latest earnings announcements and upcoming reports for companies like Kingstone Companies? Sign up for Earnings360's daily newsletter to receive timely earnings updates on Kingstone Companies and other key companies, straight to your email. Email Address About Kingstone CompaniesKingstone Companies (NASDAQ:KINS), through its subsidiary, provides property and casualty insurance products to individuals in the United States. It offers personal line of insurance products, such as homeowners and dwelling fire, cooperative/condominiums, renters, and personal umbrella policies. The company also provides for-hire vehicle physical damage only policies for livery and car service vehicles and taxicabs; and canine legal liability policies. In addition, it offers reinsurance products. The company underwrites its products through retail and wholesale agents and brokers. The company was formerly known as DCAP Group, Inc. and changed its name to Kingstone Companies, Inc. in July 2009. Kingstone Companies, Inc. was founded in 1886 and is headquartered in Kingston, New York.View Kingstone Companies ProfileRead more More Earnings Resources from MarketBeat Earnings Tools Today's Earnings Tomorrow's Earnings Next Week's Earnings Upcoming Earnings Calls Earnings Newsletter Earnings Call Transcripts Earnings Beats & Misses Corporate Guidance Earnings Screener Earnings By Country U.S. Earnings Reports Canadian Earnings Reports U.K. Earnings Reports Latest Articles Amazon Earnings: 2 Reasons to Love It, 1 Reason to Be CautiousMeta Takes A Bow With Q1 Earnings - Watch For Tariff Impact in Q2Palantir Earnings: 1 Bullish Signal and 1 Area of ConcernVisa Q2 Earnings Top Forecasts, Adds $30B Buyback PlanMicrosoft Crushes Earnings, What’s Next for MSFT Stock?Qualcomm's Earnings: 2 Reasons to Buy, 1 to Stay AwayAMD Stock Signals Strong Buy Ahead of Earnings Upcoming Earnings Palantir Technologies (5/5/2025)Vertex Pharmaceuticals (5/5/2025)Realty Income (5/5/2025)Williams Companies (5/5/2025)CRH (5/5/2025)Advanced Micro Devices (5/6/2025)American Electric Power (5/6/2025)Constellation Energy (5/6/2025)Marriott International (5/6/2025)Energy Transfer (5/6/2025) Get 30 Days of MarketBeat All Access for Free Sign up for MarketBeat All Access to gain access to MarketBeat's full suite of research tools. 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There are 6 speakers on the call. Operator00:00:00Hello, and welcome to the Kingstone Companies Incorporated 4th Quarter and Full Year 2023 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to Karen Daly, Vice President of the Equity Group and Kingstone's Investor Relations representative. Karen, you may begin. Speaker 100:00:30Thank you, Kevin. Good morning, everyone. Joining us on the call today will be Chief Executive Officer, Merrill Golden and Chief Financial Officer, Jennifer Gravel. On behalf of the company, I would like to note that this conference call may include forward looking statements, which involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors that may cause actual results to be materially different from projected results. Forward looking statements speak only as of the date on which they are made and Kingstone undertakes no obligation to update the information discussed. Speaker 100:01:02For more information, please refer to the section entitled Factors That May Affect Future Results and Financial Condition in Part 1, Item 1A of the company's latest Form 10 ks. Additionally, today's remarks may include references to non GAAP measures. For a reconciliation of our non GAAP measures to GAAP figures, please see the tables in the latest earnings release. With that, it's my pleasure to turn the call over to Merrill Golden. Merrill, you may begin. Speaker 200:01:31Thanks, Karen, and good morning, everyone. As I reflect on my 1st 6 months serving as CEO of Kingstone, it has been a journey of immense learning and I am truly honored to have been entrusted to lead this great company. I want to thank our investors for your feedback leading to enhanced transparency and to inform you that we now have an investor presentation on our website with additional data that might be of interest. It has certainly taken longer than we had hoped to get it right, but I can proudly say that we have completed the turnaround and Kingstone has returned to profitability. We are thrilled to again be positioned for consistent profitability and growth. Speaker 200:02:23Our products are priced right, our policyholders are insured to value, business written in the Select product is producing a materially lower frequency than our legacy product indicating our advanced segmentation is working. And the reduction expense ratio gives us a competitive advantage at a time when there are few active competitors in the market. I could not be more enthusiastic about our future. Returning to profitability is not just a financial milestone. It's a reflection of our commitment to sound financial management and operational efficiency that has been unwavering. Speaker 200:03:06Our return to profitability is a product of the hard work, dedication and perseverance of every member of the Kingstone team. Our transformation journey has been marked by bold decisions and an intense focus on execution. The past few years have been a period of profound change, growth and adaptation. The benefits of Kingstone 2.0 and Kingstone 3.0 are now flowing through to our income statement and doing so at an accelerating rate. Our numbers now speak for themselves. Speaker 200:03:42You can see this in the 4th quarter results and it will become even more apparent in our overall results as the non core business continues to run off. I'm extremely optimistic about the results that Kingstone can deliver in 2024 and beyond. We have successfully taken a series of actions since year end 2022 that resulted in the rapid reduction in our non core business. At December 31, our non core premium declined by 40% and policies in force by 48% year over year. In the Q4, we obtained regulatory approval to withdraw from New Jersey in line with our strategy and feel confident that we will reduce our non core policies by 80% by the end of 2024, 2 years after starting this initiative. Speaker 200:04:38We continue to take rate to stay ahead of loss trends and inflation. During the quarter, we increased rates 20% in both our New York legacy and New Jersey homeowners products, in addition to rate changes in other states as well as increased replacement cost, so our policyholders continue to be insured to value. Our core legacy homeowner rate change was 24% for the full year. Our strategy to focus on our core business will allow us to continue deepening our producer relationships and to operate more profitably over time. To further strengthen our product offering and underwriting, this week we announced a partnership with Zojax, an InsurTech firm that specializes in flood prevention, which will help mitigate the risk of water damage for our policyholders. Speaker 200:05:36We managed our exposure to catastrophe reinsurance very conservatively by slowing our core new business, particularly those risks contributing most to our PML. And since the rates for catastrophe reinsurance did not spike as high as feared, the increase in catastrophe premiums was less than we planned for. During the quarter, we began lifting these new business restrictions, resulting in a higher new business growth rate on our core business, which is accelerating even faster in 2024. We also successfully completed the placement of our 2024 quota share treaty with improved terms. For 2024, we will see 27% of adjusted personal lines written premium, down from 30% in the prior year and will receive a higher ceding commission rate than last year as our reinsurance partners recognize the positive changes that we have made to our business. Speaker 200:06:40Before I turn the call over to Jen, I am pleased to share that for the first time in several years, we are sharing our expectations and providing initial guidance for full year 2024. I want to remind you that our results are very weather dependent and we have assumed no major currently have and that our reinsurance costs would stay flat at our July 1 renewal. With those assumptions, our guidance is as follows. We believe our core business direct written premium will grow between 12% 16% year over year and will achieve a GAAP combined ratio between $88,92, earnings per diluted share between $0.50 and $0.90 and return on equity between 15% 22%. Our improved results are the culmination of the initiatives that have already been successfully executed. Speaker 200:07:50So we are confident that the benefits will become increasingly apparent in our quarterly results going forward. Our margins are increasing due to our efforts to increase premiums. At the same time, the reduction in the non core business is improving our loss ratio and the company's expenses have been reduced materially. With that, I'll turn the call over to Jen to review our financial results. Take it away, Jen. Speaker 300:08:22Thank you, Merrill, and good morning, everyone. We're very pleased to report the profitability during the Q4, achieving a net income of $2,900,000 or $0.26 per diluted share. This is a very significant improvement from the same period last year when we saw a net loss of $4,000,000 or a loss of $0.37 per share. Core direct written premiums increased 7.1% to $47,000,000 while the non core business successfully declined 40.8% during the quarter. On a consolidation basis, direct premiums written decreased slightly with price increases and new business premium in our core business offset by our planned non core policy runoff. Speaker 300:09:05For the full year, direct premiums written were flat to the prior year period. Our 4th quarter combined ratio improved 24.4 points to 89.5%, primarily driven by a strong underwriting results coupled with lower catastrophe losses. The attritional loss ratio improved 7.3 points to 53.8 percent and catastrophe losses were 10.7 points lower than the prior year period. There was no development of prior year reserves for the quarter. Our expense ratio was generally in line with the prior year period at 32.7%. Speaker 300:09:45For the year, our combined ratio improved 8 points to 105.3%, the attritional loss ratio improved 2.9 points to 65.3%. Catastrophe losses were 0.4 points lower than full year of 2022 and there was no development of prior year reserves. Our expense ratio improved by 3.1 points to 32.9 percent. As outlined in our most recent shareholder letter from Merrell, we expect to receive further improvement in our expense ratio forecasting a 29% net expense ratio in 2024. Net income increased 3% and 21.7% for the Q4 and full year respectively. Speaker 300:10:30The increase was driven by higher interest rates earned on cash balances. And in regards to the improvement for the full year, there was a reversal of accrued interest income due to an accounting error in 2022. There was no correction necessary in 2023. Equity holdings including preferred shares, fixed income ETFs, mutual funds and a hedge fund investment increased by 1,500,000 dollars Bond holdings excluding those classified as held to maturity increased by $6,100,000 pre tax resulting in a 4 point $8,000,000 after tax increase to other comprehensive income and a $0.43 increase to book value per share. The effective duration of our fixed maturity securities is 4.1 years with an average yield of 3.58%. Speaker 300:11:23Book value at December 31, 2023 was $2.81 per diluted share and $3.80 excluding AOCI. We are very pleased with the progress we have made, leading to the return of equity of 9.7% during the Q4. As Merrill mentioned earlier, we believe we can achieve a return on equity of 15% to 22% for the full year 2024. And with that, we'll open it up for questions. Kevin? Operator00:11:51Thank you. We'll now be conducting a question and answer session. Our first question today is coming from John Old from Longmeadow Investors. Your line is now live. Speaker 400:13:01Thank you. Thanks, Merrill and Jen. What a year. Thank you. Congratulations. Speaker 200:13:07Thanks, John. Speaker 400:13:09Yes. So I'm just curious what level of I know you were talking about assuming no major storms, but what level of the sort of general cat amount are you assuming in 2024? And then I also thought it would be helpful for me and everyone else to understand that how much non cash depreciation, amortization and interest is embedded in the guidance because I think your depreciation and amortization is elevated due to the perfect spending you did on software projects and such that's bearing fruit, but a lot of that will go away over time. So if you could just add a little commentary there because I think your earnings are probably a little bit understated on a cash basis. Speaker 300:14:03John, let's start with Speaker 200:14:04the Sure. Speaker 300:14:05So Go ahead, Merrill. Speaker 500:14:07Sorry. Speaker 200:14:08Yes. So before I answer your question, John, I just want to correct Jen. When she was talking about net investment income, she said net income. And so it was investment income that she was talking about that increased 3% for the year. So to your question about cat, so we've included 7 points of CAT in the plan for 2024 And that is based on what our trailing 12 year or so history has been of what we call PCS events, so normal catastrophe events and not like major hurricanes. Speaker 200:14:48So 7 points are included in the forecast. Jen, do you want to take a shot at the non cash question? Speaker 300:14:58A lot of the I'm looking it up for you right now, John. I'm trying to find it in front of me here. Speaker 100:15:12Yes, I don't have the file looking in front Speaker 300:15:14of me, John. We're going to have to revert back to you on that one. Speaker 400:15:20Okay. But your depreciation and amortization, it's going down and it should keep going down because it's a most of it is a 3 year amortization, correct? So I mean a lot of that expense is going to go away over time. Speaker 300:15:36That is correct. That is correct. Speaker 400:15:39Yes. So that in itself is about a $0.20 kit that eventually would go away. I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. Thank you very much and appreciate all your hard work you guys have done. Speaker 200:15:51Thanks, John. We'll get back to you on a more clear answer. Operator00:15:56Yes, yes. Thank you. Next question today is coming from Gabriel Maklou, a Private Investor. Your line is now live. Speaker 500:16:09Hey, congrats, Merrill and Jennifer on a great quarter. Speaker 300:16:15Thanks, Gabe. Speaker 500:16:17Yes. I just had a couple of questions. 1, the diluted and basic shares, there's a gap now there that didn't exist before. So did the debt investor, did he exercise his warrants there or what happened there? Speaker 200:16:38So I'll take that, Jen. So no, the warrants are not yet exercised, but per GAAP, when you make a profit, there is a formula where you include some of the warrants in the share count. So that's the difference for the quarter. Speaker 500:16:57Okay. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. And then kind of going forward, I know it's really early, but inquiring minds want to know, how are you thinking about capital allocation priority now that we're starting to make some money, Merrill? Speaker 200:17:16Well, I would say that our top priority right now is our debt maturity. And as you know that, our we have $20,000,000 of debt that matures in at the end of the year. So we have 9 months to figure out what to do. So that is certainly our top priority in terms of capital allocation. Speaker 500:17:41Okay, good enough. And congrats again on the great quarter. Good luck. Thank you. Operator00:17:47Thank you. We've reached the end of our question and answer session. I'd like to turn the floor back over to Merrill for any further or closing comments. Speaker 200:17:56Great. So thank you again for joining our call today. I want to express my deepest appreciation to our talented team members who have worked tirelessly through the various initiatives and to our producers, reinsurers and shareholders for your unwavering support. We're committed to delivering long term value to our shareholders and have a great day. Bye. Operator00:18:20Thank you. That does conclude today's teleconference webcast. You may disconnect your line at this time and have a wonderful day. We thank you for your participation today.Read morePowered by