NatWest Group Q1 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
April 26, 2024

Key Takeaways

  • Disciplined lending growth: Customer lending rose to £361 bn in Q1—marking the sixth consecutive year of growth—with improving mortgage demand and increased net lending to large UK corporates.
  • Deposit and asset inflows strong: Deposit balances grew to £420 bn—above expectations—and assets under management and administration climbed by £2.3 bn to £43 bn since year end.
  • Robust Q1 profitability: The bank reported income of £3.4 bn, operating profit of £1.3 bn, attributable profit of £0.9 bn, and a return on tangible equity of 14.2%, adding 3.4% to tangible NAV per share.
  • Capital strength maintained: CET1 ratio rose to 13.5%, the £500 m buyback completed, a £300 m buyback is underway, and government ownership has fallen below 29% with exit by 2026 targeted.
  • 2024 guidance reaffirmed: Income is expected to be £13–13.5 bn, operating costs broadly stable (ex-levies), loan impairment rates below 20 bp, delivering around 12% RoTE and paving a path to >13% by 2026.
AI Generated. May Contain Errors.
Earnings Conference Call
NatWest Group Q1 2024
00:00 / 00:00

There are 14 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good morning, and welcome to the Natnest Group Q1 Results 2024 Management Presentation. Today's presentation will be hosted by CEO, Paul Thwaite and CFO, Katie Murray. After the presentation, we'll take questions.

Speaker 1

Good morning, and thank you for joining us today. I'll start with the headlines. Katie will take you through the financial performance, and we'll then open it up for questions. I said in February that we are driving returns in 3 ways: first, by continuing to grow our businesses in a disciplined manner second, by driving bank wide simplification and third, by deploying capital efficiently and maintaining strong risk management. We are focused on these priorities in order to generate capital to both reinvest in the business and make further shareholder distributions.

Speaker 1

We have continued to make good progress in the Q1 and the year has started well. So let's turn now to the financial headlines. Supporting customers and the UK economy is central to our strategy, creating greater value for customers, resulting greater value for shareholders. Customer lending increased to 361,000,000,000 dollars making this the 6th consecutive year of lending growth. We are seeing early signs of improving demand in mortgages and our net lending to large U.

Speaker 1

K. Corporates continues to grow as business confidence improves. Our deposit balances have grown to €420,000,000,000 ahead of expectation with migration to higher rate savings accounts slowing as expected. And assets under management and administration grew to $43,000,000,000 up $2,300,000,000 since the year end. This customer activity underpins our strong performance in the quarter.

Speaker 1

We generated income of GBP 3,400,000,000 with costs of ZAR 2,000,000,000 delivering operating profit of ZAR 1,300,000,000 and attributable profit of ZAR 900,000,000. Taken together, this resulted in a return on tangible equity of 14.2%. Strong earnings added 10p or 3.4 percent to tangible net asset value per share, which was 302p. Our CET1 ratio for the Q1 increased to 13.5%. This includes an accrual of GBP367,000,000 towards our interim dividend, in line with our targeted ordinary dividend payout ratio of around 40%.

Speaker 1

We have completed last year's $500,000,000 on market buyback program and started the $300,000,000 buyback announced in February, which we expect to complete by the end of July. We have capacity for another directed buyback when the window opens in late May. You will be aware that the government has reduced their shareholding to below 29%, a reduction of more than 8 percentage points since the year end, in line with their intention to exit fully by 2026. This is a shared ambition, which we believe is in the best interest of the bank and our shareholders. We will work closely with UKGI and the Treasury if the government does decide to launch a retail share offer.

Speaker 1

With that, I'll now hand over to Katie.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Paul. I'll start with our performance for the Q1 using the Q4 as a comparator. Income excluding all notable items was down 0.8 percent at £3,400,000,000 Operating expenses were 4.7% lower at £2,100,000,000 which includes the new Bank of England levy. The impairment charge was £93,000,000 or 10 basis points of loans. Taking all of this together, we delivered operating profit before tax of £1,300,000,000 Profit attributable to ordinary shareholders was £980,000,000 and return on tangible equity was 14.2%.

Speaker 2

I'd like to talk now about our income performance in more detail. Overall, income, excluding notable items, of $3,400,000,000 was down 0.8% on the 4th quarter. Excluding the impact of 1 fewer day in the quarter, income across the 3 businesses increased by £14,000,000 Retail Banking was down £30,000,000 due to lower mortgage income and a reduction in card spending fees. Private Banking was broadly stable as lower mortgage income was offset by higher fees from assets under management, which grew £1,900,000,000 or 6% in the quarter. Commercial and Institutional increased £44,000,000 driven by stronger markets income.

Speaker 2

This was partly offset by a reduction in the center of £13,000,000 Group net interest margin was 205 basis points, up 6 basis points from the 4th quarter. However, it was broadly stable across the 3 businesses, excluding notable items and volatility in the center. This stabilization of margin is pleasing to see after a reduction over the prior three quarters. Moving now to lending. We continue to be disciplined in our approach and focus on deploying capital where returns are attractive.

Speaker 2

We are pleased to see a stronger mortgage market, together with ongoing demand from larger corporates and financial institutions. Gross loans to customers across our three businesses increased by £1,400,000,000 to £361,000,000,000 Taking retail banking together with private banking, mortgage balances fell by £2,100,000,000 as customer redemptions offset new lending. This led to a small reduction in our stock share from 12.7% to 12.6%. Mortgage flow share for the Q1 was broadly stable on the 4th at 10.5%. However, as the market has increased in size, this translated to higher applications.

Speaker 2

Unsecured balances were stable at $15,800,000,000 with continued growth in cards offset by a reduction in loans and overdrafts. In commercial and institutional, gross customer loans, excluding government schemes, increased by CHF3.9 billion or 3%. Within this, loans to corporates and institutions increased CHF3.1 billion as we saw broad based demand across a number of sectors. I'll now turn to deposits. These were up £900,000,000 across our 3 businesses to £420,000,000,000 which is better than expected.

Speaker 2

Across retail and private banking, household deposit balances increased by $2,100,000,000 and overall current account balances were stable despite annual tax payments. The reduction in commercial and institutional was mainly driven by active management of lower value deposits and a reduction in system liquidity. Migration from non interest bearing to interest bearing deposits continued at a slower pace as expected. Non interest bearing balances were 33% of the total compared to 34% at the end of the 4th quarter, whilst term accounts grew to 17% from 16% at the year end. As a result, the increase in our cost of deposits has slowed further, rising around 10 basis points to 2.1%, as you can see on the chart on the right.

Speaker 2

Our strong diversified funding base has strengthened our liquidity coverage ratio to 151% at the end of the quarter, up 7 percentage points on the year end. Turning now to costs. We remain on track for other operating expenses to remain broadly stable versus 2023, excluding the increase in bank levies of around £100,000,000 Costs of £2,000,000,000 for the Q1 were broadly stable with the Q4. This includes £87,000,000 of bank levies following changes to the cash deposit ratio scheme. We expect total bank levies for this year to be around €200,000,000 which is roughly £100,000,000 higher than last year, with the remainder of the charge coming in the Q4.

Speaker 2

We also incurred higher severance, branch and property exit costs in the Q1 and expect these to be weighted to the first half of the year. So you should not expect Q1 costs to be the ongoing run rate. We will continue our strong track record of disciplined cost management and investment and plan to improve productivity and efficiency through bank wide simplification. I'd like to turn now to impairments. We have not changed our macroeconomic assumptions during the quarter, And as usual, we'll update these at the half year.

Speaker 2

Our diversified prime loan book continues to perform well. We're reporting a net impairment charge of £93,000,000 in the Q1, equivalent to 10 basis points of loans. Stage 3 impairments continue to normalize, but this was partly offset by good book releases. Our balance sheet provision for expected credit loss includes £411,000,000 of post model adjustments for economic uncertainty, which is down £18,000,000 in the quarter. We continue to expect a loan impairment rate below 20 basis points for the full year in 2024.

Speaker 2

Turning now to capital. We ended the Q1 with a common equity Tier 1 ratio of 13.5%, up 10 basis points in the quarter. We generated 50 basis points of capital from earnings, which was partly offset by RWA growth consuming 24 basis points. The accrual for ordinary dividends was equivalent to 20 basis points. RWAs increased by £3,300,000,000 to £186,300,000,000 This was driven by higher lending in commercial and institutional and the annual update to operational risk, which added GBP 1,600,000,000 We continue to expect RWAs to be around GBP 200,000,000,000 at the end of 20 25, including the impact of Basel 3.1 and further CRD4 model developments.

Speaker 2

Our CET1 ratio target remains 13% 14%, and we retain capacity to participate in a directed buyback from the U. K. Government at the earliest opportunity. Tangible net asset value per share has increased by 10p mainly as a result of attributable profits. The cash flow hedge reserve was broadly stable as the impact of the yield curve changes were mitigated by ongoing decay.

Speaker 2

Turning now to guidance for 2024. We continue to expect income, excluding notable items, to be in the range of £13,000,000,000 to £13,500,000,000 Group operating costs, excluding litigation and conduct, to be broadly in line with 2023, excluding an increase in the bank levies of around GBP 100,000,000 and the loan impairment rates to be below 20 basis points, altogether delivering a return on tangible equity of around 12%. Looking beyond 2024, we believe the business is well positioned to grow income, control costs and maintain strong risk management, providing a clear path to our 2026 target for return on tangible equity of greater than 13%. And with that, I hand back to the operator for Q and A. Thank you.

Operator

We will now take your questions. If you're dialing in by phone, you can press star 9 to raise your hand and star 6 to unmute once prompted. Our first question is from Chris Can't from Autonomous. Chris, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 2

Hey, Chris.

Speaker 3

Good morning. Thanks for taking my questions.

Speaker 1

Hi, Chris.

Speaker 3

I wanted to think a little bit forward in time please and just come back to your final comment Katie around the greater than part of your ROTE expectation in the outer years. You haven't changed your macro assumptions. I think your base rate assumptions are now probably one of the more out of line set of rate assumptions in the sector relative to market expectations. And I appreciate you don't want to mark to market all the time, but I think you're assuming in 2026 an average base rate of 2.9% or something around that level, which is quite a long way out of kilter with where rates markets would be at around 4% on average. So if I think about your rate sensitivity guidance and I think about how that delta to market expectations develops, Some of that rate gap arises this year, some of it's next year, quite a lot of it's next year.

Speaker 3

If I take your year 2 or year 3 sensitivity, we could be talking about a $1,000,000,000 of extra revenues based on your sensitivity guidance. So how are you thinking about that in the context of your ROTE? Are we just waiting now for the passage of time before you update that? Or is there some other concern that leads you to not want to update us because as I say your rate assumptions do seem to be very disjointed relative to rates markets expectations at the moment. And in terms of how that plays out this year, Katie, I think at full year you had indicated second half revenues would be stronger than first half revenues even with 5 base rate cuts embedded in your assumptions back end loaded this year.

Speaker 3

So if we don't get those rate assumption rate cuts coming through to that degree of severity, Should we be expecting revenues to be ticking up very sharply half over half into the second half of this year? Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Chris. Very clear. Katie, I'll come to you on Chris' second question, the kind of half on half. But I'll take the I'll give you the view on the kind of the ROTE and returns, Chris. As you rightly pointed out, we have a set of kind of broader economic assumptions around rate cuts there.

Speaker 1

We're pleased with the quarter one outturn. Obviously, ROTE of 14.2 is a very encouraging start, especially given the context of our full year guidance of around 12. You can see what's driving that in terms of both the deposit piece and the lending piece, balances on the deposit side, but also the continuing slowing migration. At this stage, you're right. Our guidance assumes the 5 rate cuts with the first one starting in May.

Speaker 1

We're not updating those assumptions here. There's obviously a pretty active debate, not least in the last couple of weeks about both the timing and the quantum of any reductions. So it remains early in the year. We feel good about the progress. We're increasingly confident in the context of 2024, but also as your question alluded to in terms of the medium term, again, our confidence has increased based on the performance in the Q1.

Speaker 1

But taking a step back, we're only a quarter into the year. So at this point, we're not changing the guidance. Do you want to take the GBP 24,000,000 half on half?

Speaker 2

Yes, sure. Absolutely. So I mean Q1, obviously, income was GBP 3,400,000,000, obviously, an encouraging start to the year, benefiting from that slightly better deposit volume that we had. In February, we guided to H2 income being slightly higher than H1, depending on the extent of the headwinds that we saw in H1. So I guess given the strength of Q1, we now expect the half on half profile to be a bit more balanced.

Speaker 2

But Chris, as we all know, it's still early in the year. I'm not going to give you quarterly guidance on that, but we do note that the Bank of England rate cuts come in both May June, and that will have an impact, obviously, as we move forward from here. We do expect to see some continued more good pressure on spreads in Q2, which we have talked about as well at the year end, some potential for the deposit shifts and they assumed base rate cuts as well coming in. We have given you the sensitivity for the full year, so you can take your own views on that shape. And we just remind you that that's a static balance sheet, So you do need to think about the evolution of the balance sheet as you build those in as well as the timing on that as we go through.

Speaker 2

But overall, comfortable the year has started well, and we'd expect it to be slightly more balanced half on half than the slight uptick that we talked about in February. Thanks very much, Chris. Thanks, Katie. Thanks, Chris.

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Aman Raka of Barclays. Aman, please unmute and ask your question.

Speaker 1

Hi, Aman.

Speaker 5

Good morning, Paul. Good morning, Katie. Thanks very much for taking the questions. Can I ask on Corporate Center was obviously very noisy in the quarter? The observation is I think it's kind of flat to NIM and kind of weighed on non interest income in the quarter.

Speaker 5

Specifically in relation to the 4 bps funding cost benefit, can you actually just help us understand exactly what is going on there? I think the key question for a lot of people based on the feedback I'm getting on this morning is whether we should expect any of that to fall away. I guess another way of asking that is 205 basis points NIM a decent start point for our modeling for NIM from kind of Q2 onwards? Is there any reason to think that kind of falls away? And relatedly, the kind of non interest income presumably you're expecting to not see the negative drag that you experienced in Q1 going forward.

Speaker 5

So that is one question. I think it would be helpful if you could kind of talk those two lines at the same time, please, in response to that. The second question is in a more in a rate scenario that's more akin to market pricing, is there if we want to get the rate cuts in May June in this scenario, is there any reason in your mind to think that NIM falls substantially from here? Just in my scenario where there are no rate cuts in Q2, is there any reason to think in your mind that NIM or NII falls substantially in Q2, please? Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Aman. We're happy to help with that. Katie, do you want to go with

Speaker 2

the Yes, sure. Absolutely. So let me start with the NIM and the magical question. I know you've all been busy with this morning of will the 4 basis points reserve. So reverse, I guess, let me, I guess, start by reminding you that, of course, we don't guide on NIM.

Speaker 2

What we do give you is total income guidance and since this is what matters for earnings and for capital generation. And the other thing I would just remind you of is that our NII, it's an all in NII. We don't make any exclusions for particular types of funding costs or any particular treasury type activity. So on Slide 19 in the pack, you can see the NIM walk, and that shows the benefit from funding and other of the 4 basis points you've mentioned already. And this is really driven by a change in net interest income in the Centre.

Speaker 2

And as we've said, I think you should expect that the center total income is roughly 0 since we allocate this out to the business. However, what we do find is that there can be volatility between the two lines of NII and non interest income. So this NII in the center, it doesn't necessarily reverse next quarter. But given it's largely offset by non interest income, then the impact on total income from this is a dynamic I think that you should be considering about. I would say on NIM, our overall message is a very simple one, is that NIM is broadly stable across the 3 businesses.

Speaker 2

And we're really pleased to see that this outcome given that it shows that the headwinds of mortgage margin and the deposit mix, they're largely offset by the tailwind that we have on the structural hedge. So I would really encourage you to focus on that. And in your modeling, consider that central item as kind of a 0 item as you move forward from here. I guess when you go into the scenario, if there's no rate cuts, again here we don't want to guide on the name, but clearly the only thing we'd expect to change in the drivers versus Q1 is the base rate cut at this point. The mortgage margin is probably fairly similar.

Speaker 2

I think we've talked a lot over the last few quarters that we're nearing the end of that headwind, and you can see that in the valuation of the mortgage books. The mix continues to be offset by the hedge. In terms of rate cuts, let's kind of talk a bit more about that and see what happens as we speak more in July, after which we will have had or have not had some of the rate cuts the market might be suggesting. Thanks, Simon.

Speaker 1

Katie and Matt. And as you know, we issue quite a lot of sensitivities. So you can, I guess, form your own judgments from that? There's quite a lot of detail available if you want to run some scenarios. Thanks, Aman.

Operator

Our next question comes from Andrew Coombs of Citi.

Speaker 6

Morning. I think my main question was just asked, but perhaps I can ask one instead on mortgages. You talked about a much more than perhaps upbeat outlook for completion spreads at the last quarter, which I assume has continued, but if you could elaborate there on current completion spreads would be helpful. But I also wanted to link that into your flow share because for 2 consecutive quarters, you've been running around 10.5% versus your stock share at 12.6%. So how do you see the dynamic playing out going forward between your focus on attractive completion spreads versus taking market share or maintaining market share in the mortgage market?

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Andrew. Why don't I take the latter and then maybe come back on the completion spread specific. So Andrew, on mortgages, we've been pretty consistent on this over the course of the last couple of quarters in my view. It's an important business for us. You know that we've demonstrated good market share growth over a number of years up to our current stock share of circa 12.6%.

Speaker 1

It remains an important business for us. Given the thinness of the market last year, especially around quarter 3, quarter 4 and the tightness of the spreads. I was clear in February that we'd taken some very quarter 1. What I would say in terms of this year so far, the system level applications significantly higher. You'll see and know that.

Speaker 1

I'm pleased to say that's replicated in our application volumes as well. What's also encouraging is the strengthening of the margins at the front end. So what that means, all of those things being equal, is that we would expect to see our volumes and share improve as we progress through the year. And over the course of the last, I guess, number of weeks, our flow share has been more in line with our stock share. And obviously, with margin stabilizing, that will contribute to the income growth as we go forward through half 2.

Speaker 1

Do you want to cover the completions?

Speaker 2

Yes, sure. Absolutely. Yes, no, I just had a little bit on. So, I guess historically, it's important that, Andrew, that we've given you application margins, not completion spreads as they've come through. You know that we always have activity going on around treasury and things like that, but clearly, they're not so different, but you can get some differences through them.

Speaker 2

We're writing around 70 basis points. I would expect that to be kind of around about that level for most of the year. It will move up and down a little bit, but in that sort of basis. What I would say, and we said this again in February, the completion spread is a little bit below that in Q1. If I look at stock, the book overall was 80 basis points at the end of the year.

Speaker 2

It's now sitting around 74 basis points. So we're very much nearing the front end the front book level and the back book differential. It's kind of coming to an end, which is great, and that's why we see that strength coming through in income and then obviously in terms of the NIM as well. But I would kind of think of those sorts of numbers as you go forward from here. Thanks, Andrew.

Operator

Our next question comes from Benjamin Toms of RBC. Benjamin, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 4

Morning, both. Thank you for taking my questions. Firstly, on the structural hedge, your product notion was 185,000,000,000 at the end of 2023. I think your guidance was you expect it to fall to around €170,000,000,000 by the end of this year. Given the deposit build in the quarter and the slowdown in migration, is €170,000,000,000 still the right number for our structural head modeling?

Speaker 4

And you noted in your presentation on costs in Q1 not to annualize the Q1 number. Can you just update some of the drivers which underpin your confidence that the run rate will come down from here? Would you expect a fall in the run rate to be linear as we go through the quarters? Or will there be more of a cliff edge? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Super. Thanks. Sorry, Paul, you're jumping in. In terms of the structural hedge, so we talked about the notional, it's €185,000,000 at the year end, €170,000,000 by the end of 2024 based on that static balance sheet. You can see that given the changes in the deposit balance and the mix in the first half of twenty twenty three and our 12 month look back approach, you probably expect most of that reduction to really occur in the first half.

Speaker 2

If you think of how deposits stabilize in the second half of this year and have continued to be relatively stable in the first half. But I think that kind of 170 is a good number for you to continue to work with as you move forward from here. If I think a little bit about the yield that we were getting, it was 152 basis points we talked at the end of Q4. It will be a little bit higher than that in Q1, I would expect. And we shared with you historically our assumptions around that reinvestment rate.

Speaker 2

3.10 average for the year. Clearly, the 5 year swap's been a bit stronger in the first quarter, so that will help lift that a little bit. But we'll go through the next number of quarters and see how that kind of rolls off as well. So what we have said is that we do expect a moderate increase in the hedge income. We're going to take 24 in terms of 2023 and then expect that to continue to grow greater as I go into 2025 and 2026.

Speaker 2

If I go to your kind of run rate kind of question, so obviously, GBP 3,400,000,000 for the end of the for Q1. As I look forward to the full year, we sort of talked about second half being more on par with kind of first half. We've obviously got the rate cuts to kind of come in the second quarter. You've heard me talk already about that center income. And if you shouldn't assume that that's a repeating event in each of the quarters.

Speaker 2

So I would kind of take that out when you think a little bit about your run rate. But at the moment, we're feeling comfortable. It's been a good start to the year and very happy to take that.

Speaker 1

Good. And second question, Ben, around the cost profile. So we're reiterating our guidance of broadly stable for the year. Katie consistently uses a phrase around our costs will be lumpy. I think that continues to be the right phrase.

Speaker 1

What you can what we know about quarter 1 is that we've front loaded some of our restructuring charges, both in relation to severance, but also into property costs as well. So I wouldn't assume any sort of linear trajectory. The restructuring costs do tend to be focused on the first half of the year. But we're very clear, we're confident in reiterating our broadly stable guidance, excluding the Bank of England Levy.

Speaker 4

Thank you. Thanks.

Operator

Our next question comes from Alvaro Serrano from Morgan Stanley. Alvaro, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 7

Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. I really have one follow-up. Most of them have been answered. In terms of the mortgage business, you mentioned, Katie, that you would expect similar 70 basis points.

Speaker 7

But if we are seeing the recurring volume we're seeing, presumably the mix should be better with less remortgaging. It should we not expect spreads to improve from here. And how you're seeing the overall competitive environment there? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Yes. I mean, I think overall, rather than kind of trying to subdivide that number into what's remortgaging and new mortgages and things like that, I would probably take you to total book. So the total book, you know, was 80 basis points at the end of the year at 74. We're writing at or around kind of 70. There's obviously different other things you then bring in around SVR and perm and all that kind of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2

So I'll leave you to kind of play around with that, I think. But I would use those stats as your kind of helpful guide. Look, mortgages, I always sort of smile a little bit when we talk about this as we remain competitive. I would say for banking, this is one of the most competitive markets every day of the week in terms of where it is. And the actual activity moves around depending on the size of the market, what's happening on the rates and things like that.

Speaker 2

So, yes, very competitive. Pleased with the performance that we're going through, pleased with what we see coming on at the moment. Obviously, the business we're writing today will come on in 3 to 6 months as we roll through the year, as we see this stuff from the tail end of last year coming on just now. But I think a good performance and it's good to have that kind of digestion of the higher rate business that we had historically kind of having come through the books. So there's less drag on our NIM as we go forward.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Alvaro.

Speaker 7

And maybe one follow-up, please, on general environment and volumes. It does look like, certainly, the volumes were better, not just in mortgages, but I'm actually thinking more commercialization better than we would have guessed a few months ago, good start to the year. If rates do remain high for longer, how much of that activity is pent up demand or actually fresh new sort of demand? Maybe some you can qualify that. How what should we expect with the next few quarters if rates don't go down as fast as we predicted a couple of months back?

Speaker 7

Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Elvira. I'll take that. The growth in the Commercial Institutional business is encouraging on the lending side in the Q1. Ordinarily, as you know, it kind of it reflects a slight lag. We saw the opportunity to deploy capital at good returns in the latter part of the year and that's flowed through to the balance sheet during quarter 1.

Speaker 1

What I would say is that it's quite broad based growth. It reflects growth in our mid market business and also another significant proportion of the growth is from our large corporate and institutional business. Again, within that, it's quite broad across different asset classes. It's infrastructure, it's asset finance, it's project finance, its funds lending, etcetera. So I'm not going to, I guess, speculate on the relative component parts and how that might evolve.

Speaker 1

What I would say is that the confidence is definitely better. That's translating into customer activity. The trajectory of interest rates will obviously affect that. But I guess the reality is that in the current environment that demand has picked up from that perspective. We feel more confident now on the kind of commercial lending front than we probably did as you alluded to 3 or 6 months ago.

Operator

Our next question comes from Robin Down of HSBC. Robin, please unmute and go ahead. Good morning.

Speaker 8

Can you hear me? Hi. Yeah. Apologies for being a bit kind of train spottery with this. The group center, and I appreciate this is kind of an overall revenue kind of neutral.

Speaker 8

But this is, is this movement we're seeing, is it all about the FX swaps that you've talked about in the past? And is that then linked to the relative rates, U. S. Rates versus kind of UK rates? And the reason I'm kind of focused on this is just trying to work out with U.

Speaker 8

S. Rates kind of looking likely to stay higher when we might see that, reversing back to a kind of small negative like we've seen in the past. I'm just trying to get a bit of background color, if you like, on how that might move over the next couple of quarters. Thanks.

Speaker 2

That's fine, Robin. And don't worry, I'm a bit of a bird spotter myself, so I'm very happy to meet a train spotter to swap, swap, swap, swap, swap, swap, sales with Luke. FX swaps is one component of this as we manage the kind of liquidity optimally. There's also a bit that goes on with our hedge accounting classifications, which can often depend on the kind of the volumes we have in any one pace, which is why it's kind of difficult to bring a kind of guide to you on it. And I would kind of guide you for your modeling just to kind of work with a zero number on that.

Speaker 2

I do accept that's frustrating because then there'll be 1 quarter of this that there's a little bit of it. We do seek to kind of allocate out to the businesses as much as we can, so you can see it there. But certainly, at the total income level, you will see that it doesn't generally have an impact at all. Thanks, Robin.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Robin.

Speaker 2

Oliver, any other questions?

Operator

Yes. Our next question is Farhad Khanhwa from Redburn Atlantic. Farhad, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 9

Hi, both. Thanks for taking my questions. It was just one really, obviously. The question has been asked on the flow on your mortgage business. But in general, interest earning assets, given the positivity we've seen in the Q1, obviously, we came in at 525, it's kind of gone to 521.

Speaker 9

Consensus, I think, is 5.26. Should we expect now that the approvals being stronger, you talked about unsecured momentum, C and I momentum. Should we expect now from this level, average interest earning assets to grow throughout the course of the year? Thanks.

Speaker 2

Yes. So if we look at the average adjusted assets, I think you can see the full detail of it on page kind of 20. So we've had what I would kind of say is that as you look kind of Q3 last year to Q1 this year, they're relatively kind of stable at that kind of 5.21 number. And you see a little bit of a movement between the kind of liquid asset buffer and there. Look, how they kind of develop from here, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 2

It is as you see those mortgages come on, you'll see that kind of add some value to it. We do expect that book to kind of grow. And obviously, the C and I business has been helpful as well within that. But you can it's helpful to kind of look at some of that quarterly split as well to see how they kind of they do move around a little bit, but I'd expect a little bit of growth as we move forward from here. Thanks, Afaiheed.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Katie.

Operator

Our next question comes from Raul Sinha of JPMorgan. Raul, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 2

Hi, Raul. Hey, Raul.

Speaker 10

Squeezing me in. Maybe a couple of follow ups then from my side. If we look at your deposit pass through, 40% versus the 38% last quarter and we link that back to the deposit margin that you show on Slide 19, which is now plus one basis point, it was quite negative in the last 2 or 3 quarters, the deposit margin itself because of the deposit trends. The only way your NIM doesn't actually go up from here would be if deposit trends, at least the way I look at it, if deposit trends were to get a lot worse in the Q2 of the year. So just try to square your message around stability of the name, you know, with with the kind of, inflection point that we are seeing in this deposit margin, and we know that the asset margin is obviously going to bottom out.

Speaker 10

So just to invite you on this point, do you think that there's anything non repeatable within the deposit trends that you've seen in the Q1? And are you expecting to have, let's say, a more challenging second quarter from a deposit pass through or flows perspective? And I guess the second one is just on credit quality. We obviously, on the corporate side, we have seen some large corporates in the U. K.

Speaker 10

Which are quite levered, having issues, whether it's utilities or if you look at the kind of broad insolvency data that's coming out, it does show that there's been quite a significant tick up there. We know that your book is quite prime, but can you talk to us about how you see the risk developing through the year? And you still got quite a big PMA attached to uncertainty there. How should we think about the timing of the unwind of that? Thank you.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Raul.

Speaker 2

Should I just jump in? Perfect. So I guess if I look at the kind of deposit pass through and the kind of mix of deposits and what that could kind of mean for NIM. I think the thing for me that's important to bear in mind is customer behavior has changed as customer savings rates increased and we've kind of reached peak and now those rates have kind of started to fall. What we did see in Q1 that the behaviour was very much in line with our expectations, but I think in line with the wider system and piece, there's been more household income, I mean, household deposits in the system, and we've obviously benefited from that as well.

Speaker 2

As you know, and we've talked about it a lot at the call, at the beginning of the call, we are predicting 2 rate cuts in this next quarter that will have an impact. So that's so I think we're mindful on that deposit margin as what that will do just obviously in absolute terms that will have an impact. There's obviously a timing lag before you can pass some of those through ultimately to your customers, but also what that might do in terms of the competitiveness of the market piece. We do still keep an eye on TFS and B, and I would say that while we talked earlier around the competition we're seeing in mortgages, this has probably been one of the lesser competitive quarters in terms of deposits, in terms of the wider market activity. And that's something I think we all really need to be very mindful of as we move forward from here.

Speaker 2

If we then move on to kind of impairments in PMAs, Raul, I'll just for us, we had a small decrease in the PMA this quarter for economic uncertainty, £18,000,000 in total. We brought it down. I've always said on the PMAs is, it will be a multi quarter event as we kind of bring that number down. We wouldn't expect to see a big move in any one quarter unless there was some consumption that kind of happened to absorb that. So we'll see that go down.

Speaker 2

We're guiding you to less than 20 basis points for the year. I think sitting where we are just now, we remain comfortable with that, so no need to kind of update that guidance at this point. We will continue to review the PMAs each and every quarter as you'd expect us to.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Rojo. Maybe just a couple of build points on the corporate asset quality. We continue to be very encouraged by the underlying asset quality in the corporate book. We're not seeing any sort of significant deterioration there. So that's encouraging.

Speaker 1

You referenced insolvencies that tends to be at the smaller end of the market. There are some technicalities there. When we look at our customer base in insolvencies, actually the numbers haven't increased materially. The majority of them tend to be to smaller businesses that don't have credit exposures. So it's quite noisy that insolvency data.

Speaker 1

That's just I guess a little build for you, Raul. But generally very encouraged by the resilience of customers and the action they've taken over the course of the last couple of years.

Speaker 8

Thanks a lot. Thanks very much.

Operator

Our next question comes from Jonathan Pierce of Numis. Jonathan, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 11

Yes, morning both. A couple of questions, please. One's on the near term revenue and then second on the longer term revenue. Totally accept you don't want to change your revenue guidance for this year just yet. So maybe I can focus in a bit more on the range, the €500,000,000 range from €13,000,000 to €13,500,000,000 I'm guessing that's really driven by a couple of moving parts, one the response to the rate cuts that you've got in and the size therefore of the gapping negatives.

Speaker 11

And the second, again, guessing that that's an assumption you'll potentially see a drift up in pricing, regardless of any rate moves. If we do see fewer rate cuts and they're more spread out than your sort of May June assumption, for instance, Presumably that significantly reduces the potential hit from the gapping negative. I think I'm right that you haven't increased deposit pricing on your Instant Access savings accounts now since September as well. Certainly, Flexible Saver hasn't moved at all. So if you're not yet willing to talk about the broad guidance at this fairly early stage in the year.

Speaker 11

Can we at least consign the lower end of the range to the dustbin, please? The second question is more around NII and consensus expectations moving forwards. Again, I don't expect to pin you down on this, but consensus has only got about €400,000,000 €500,000,000 NII growth in for 2025 'twenty six. But based on today's yield curve, you're looking at a €1,200,000,000, €1,300,000,000 tailwind a year from the hedge. The impact per base rate cut is on the managed margin circa £100,000,000 The mortgage book, I think I heard you say, is already down at 70 4 basis points on the back book.

Speaker 11

Do you think consensus is being a little churlish here? And are those sort of drivers that the main ones to be thinking about over the next couple of years? Thanks a

Speaker 1

lot. Thanks, John. Let me take the first one kind of quickly. We're not changing the range today. The guidance is what it is.

Speaker 1

There's a range of different scenarios as you lay out in terms of the trajectory, the timing, the quantum of interest rate reductions. We've got a lot of sensitivities that allow everybody to make their own assumptions around that. I think the message we're giving is that we're increasingly confident about the guidance we've given in 'twenty four, but we're not confining any part of the guidance to the dustbin just to quote you back, the guidance is the guidance. On the second point?

Speaker 2

Yes, sure. Absolutely, Luke. I mean, as you look at the NII consensus and the what the benefit of the hedge could be, I mean, we've said repeatedly that we do believe it is a strong benefit as we move on from here. We've talked about the actual size of the hedge shape, sort of decreasing from 1.85 to 1.70, around that number. I said you'd expect much of that to kind of get to you by the middle of ish of the year.

Speaker 2

And from there, given that we would see stability, we'd expect to see that hedge tailwind build from here. Jonathan, you're very familiar with the sensitivities that we have within here. You also understand they're off a static balance sheet. So, you can do the 12 month look back from the data that you have as well. But I think as we look at that, we are confident about the income growth through to 2026, and, obviously, delivery of our greater than 13% RoTE at that point.

Speaker 2

Thanks very much, Jonathan.

Speaker 12

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Our next question comes from Ed Frith of KBW. Ed, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 2

Hey, Ed. Hey, Ed.

Speaker 9

Good morning, everybody. Good morning. Yes, I take a

Speaker 12

question on capital actually. I guess one of the impacts of your share price is that your the government buyback now, I guess, costs about double what it did 6 months ago. So I think that's it's about 60 basis points off core Tier 1 now, something like that, a 5% buyback. And then on top of that, you've got Basel III coming through, which is, I guess, is another 130 or so. So you've actually got about a 200 basis point headwind to capital over the next 12, 18 months.

Speaker 12

So I'm just trying to think, how should we think about open market buybacks in the context of that? I mean, is that are they still something that is in your thinking? Or should we sort of park those to the one side for the time being? And I guess slightly related to that, I also noticed consensus has your dividend coming down. And I guess that's just a formulaic application of the 40% payout ratio.

Speaker 12

But as we go forward over the years, there'll be times, particularly on things like impairments, the way IFRS 9 works, it's going to be a very volatile number, I suspect. Should we think of just a formulaic 40%? Or should we think that actually there is a progressive element in your thinking there that perhaps you'll try and smooth some of that out? Thanks so much.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Ed.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Ed. Morning. Look, you're absolutely right. So capital sitting at 13.5%, 5% of the market cap buyback. So it would be a little bit more expensive today given the improvement we've got in the share price.

Speaker 2

It would be kind of a 1.3 £1,000,000,000 ticker versus the kind of 1 or a 1.1 we've done in the past. So not quite double the cost indeed, but when we look at the capital plans for the year, we obviously plan for some share price movement within that as we move forward from there. You're obviously right, Basel 3.1 is coming in. I mean, I guess what we've guided you on RWAs and our guidance is unchanged. It's 200 1,000,000,000 of RWAs at the end of 2025, remembering that it will be lumpy as we go around from there.

Speaker 2

The on market buybacks, we're pleased with how the one that we announced last year just completed and how the new one has started. It's a conversation that Paul and I will have with the board when we get to it in June and July, looking really quite far out in terms of what's happening with the capital basis. I would say, I agree with you, the dividends and consensus, it will be very formulaic. Our dividend policy is around 40% payout. Last year, that was £0.17 per share.

Speaker 2

We are mindful, obviously, of the absolute level, but we've been very strict on the application of that around 40% payout. I wouldn't expect that to change any time soon. Thanks, Ed.

Speaker 12

So just coming back on that. I mean, one of your peers has dropped its Core Tier 1 target. I mean, in terms of making buybacks, you obviously can see a quarter ahead. I mean, would you be happy to go below the 13% at the point of a buyback?

Speaker 2

So we manage the business to 13% to 14% range, and that's what we'll continue to do so. We're very confident in our capacity given the 50 percent 50 basis points, forgive me, generation that we had on earnings in Q1 and there's no reason to see why that would diminish. So we're very comfortable.

Speaker 9

Great. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Lovely. Thanks, Ayn.

Operator

Our final question comes from Guy Stebbings of BNP Paribasane. Guy, please unmute and go ahead.

Speaker 13

Hi, good morning both. Thanks for squeezing the question. Thanks.

Speaker 9

I fear I might be disappointed

Speaker 13

on this one, but I'm going to ask anyway because it's around the FY 'twenty four revenue guide. It's a bit similar to Jonathan's question, really. I guess maybe the way to ask it is, just think about how high the bar is to raise guidance at this point in the year. I mean, I appreciate you intend to refresh guidance for the half year and full year and refine assumptions then. But you changed the guidance for the bank levy.

Speaker 13

I accept you've got visibility there is,

Speaker 9

you know, is certain and it's harder on revenue. But to many of us, I think it looks like the revenue will come in more than $100,000,000 above the top end of the guidance this year. So

Speaker 13

I'm just trying to really work out,

Speaker 9

is it the bar to raise income guidance at this point

Speaker 13

of the year is just so high? Or if there are some headwinds outside of possible rate cuts that we're under appreciating? And then just to sort of follow on that, on mortgage spreads, could you give any more color on the evolution of mortgage spreads churn this year? Just thinking about where that headwind is sort of reducing sequentially over the course of this year, with the backburn now being sub-eighty basis points, it would feel like it should be a pretty modest headwind. Thank you.

Speaker 13

Yes,

Speaker 2

sure. Thanks very much. So kind of simple answer on the guidance, you know, the cost is really easy because I've paid it. So, it's one of those things, you know, it's all kind of done. So therefore, we're just sharing you with you the really kind of up to date information.

Speaker 2

And then as you know, that will accrue a little bit through the year. It doesn't match properly in the 1st year. You've talked about that a lot this week already. We've had CHF 6,000,000 in the income line already. But the thing around the guidance, we're at Q1, we've had a promising start, we're comfortable.

Speaker 2

We'll update you as we move forward. I would say traditionally Guy, we haven't only done it on Q2. We'll tell you when there's something meaningful to share in terms of that piece and we'll continue on that basis. If I look at the mortgage spreads, there's not anything there that we're particularly concerned about. The book is going to reprice now down to that kind of from 80 basis points down to kind of 74,000,000.

Speaker 2

We're writing around the 70,000,000 kind of level. So we just see, as you say, there's not a lot of there's not a lot of difference in terms of that churn as we go on from here. But there's nothing no headwinds that you're not aware of. I think we've talked about mortgage margin and deposit mix a lot today and we do see them abating from here. Lovely.

Speaker 2

Thanks, Kai.

Speaker 1

Kai. Thanks, Kai. I think we politely disappointed you on the first one.

Operator

There are no more questions at this time. So I'd like to hand back to Paul for any closing comments.

Speaker 1

Okay. Thanks, Oli, and thank you everybody for your questions this morning. Katie and myself very much appreciate that. As you heard, we're pleased with the performance for the Q1 and the momentum we have in the business. This gives us confidence not only for 2024, but for the years beyond in terms of our ability to drive future returns and to achieve our ROTE target of greater than 13% in 2026.

Speaker 1

And whilst I'm sure we'll see you before, we do look forward formally to speaking again at the half year. I wish you all a very good weekend. Thank you.

Operator

That concludes today's presentation. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

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