Hubbell Q4 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

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Provided by Quartr
February 4, 2025
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Operator

Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the Fourth Quarter twenty twenty four Hubbell Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. After the speakers' presentation, there will be a question and answer session. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded.

Operator

I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Dan Inamorado. Please go ahead.

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

Thanks, operator. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us. Earlier this morning, we issued a press release announcing our results for the The press release and slides are posted to the Investors section of our website at hubble.com. Joined today are our Chairman, President and CEO, Gerben Bacher and our Executive Vice President and CFO, Bill Sperry. Please note our comments this morning may include statements related to the expected future results of our company and our forward looking statements as defined by the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

Please Please note the discussion of forward looking statements in our press release and considered incorporated by reference into this call. Additionally, comments may also include non GAAP financial measures. Those measures are reconciled to the comparable GAAP measures and are included in the press release and slides. Now let me turn the call over to Gurban.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Great. Good morning and thank you for joining us to discuss Hubbell's fourth quarter and '20 '20 04/00 results. Hubbell delivered strong double digit growth in adjusted operating profit, adjusted earnings per share and free cash flow in the quarter. While organic volumes were below our expectations, strong execution drove year over year adjusted operating margin expansion of two forty basis points. On a full year basis, we achieved mid single digit sales growth, 9% adjusted operating profit growth, 90 basis points of adjusted operating margin expansion and double digit growth in free cash flow.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

2024 adjusted earnings per share of $16,.57 was above the high end of our initial guidance range as well as our latest outlook we provided in Oct. 0. We achieved this strong full year performance despite having to navigate pockets of significant challenges in telecom markets and utility customer destocking, as we executed effectively throughout the year on four key levers within our control. The first of these levers is that we made significant progress in 2024 on our strategy to unify our Electrical Solutions segment. We generated above market growth in attractive verticals with an integrated solutions oriented service model for our customers, while at the same time driving business simplification and operational efficiencies to expand margins.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

These efforts resulted in double digit adjusted operating profit growth in 2024 despite absorbing the impact of the Residential Lighting divestiture. Second, we effectively captured opportunities from secular growth trends across our utility and electrical markets, most notably driving double digit growth in transmission and substation markets in front of the meter, as well as renewables and data center balance of system solutions behind the meter. Third, we proactively manage price cost productivity in 2024. Price realization remains favorable across both segments. We are delivering on accelerated productivity plans in our factories and supply chain and we actively manage our cost structure and discretionary spending.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And fourth, our strong balance sheet and differentiated capital deployment strategy contributed significantly to our success, primarily to the acquisition and successful integration of systems control. As we look ahead, we expect that the temporary headwinds we face in 2024 will face going forward, while each of the levers that we have driven our success in 2024 and prior years remain intact for 2025 and beyond. We are introducing our full year 2025 outlook this morning, which anticipates mid single digit organic growth with continued margin expansion and attractive growth in operating profit, earnings per share and free cash flow. This outlook is consistent with our long term financial framework and demonstrates Hubbell's confidence in our ability to continue compounding off of a strong multi year base of performance. I will share more details on the outlook at the end of this call, but first let me turn it over to Bill to provide you with some more details on our performance in the quarter.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Thanks, Gurb, and good morning, everybody. Appreciate you taking the time to be with us. I'm going to use the slides to guide my comments and I'm starting on Page four of those materials. So this four blocker, you can see the strong performance Hubble turned in, in the and you can see the business model in action. Double digit growth in operating profit, double digit growth in earnings per share and 28% growth in free cash flow despite flattish sales.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Those flat sales at $130,000,000,0.0 were below our expectations. It's not uncommon for year end to have different forms of incentive driven distortions. Specifically, there are some volume driven rebates in the system as well as free cash flow driven bonus formulas. And those kinds of incentives can lead decision makers to not want inventory and put their orders in to be shipped after Dec. 0 And in particular, in low volume years, those can be exacerbated a little bit.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

So I think we experienced some of that in Dec. 0. But independent of the organic on the inorganic side, good contribution on sales from our net M and A efforts. So that includes exiting the residential lighting business, but adding systems control, which is to remind everybody, provides turnkey solutions in the substation market and you saw a good contribution to sales inorganically there. The operational performance more than made up for that sales backdrop.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

In particular, some of the price cost productivity levers were effectively pulled. We continued to get price in the quarter. So I think impressive after a couple of years of compounding here between 2022 and 2023 and now 2024. And on the operational side, those portfolio transformation efforts really benefit the margins as well. So you saw 2.5 points nearly 2.5 points of margin expansion.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

On the EPS side, an increase of 11% to 4.1 in the quarter. That 11% growth rate is in line with operating profit. So the non op items were neutral in the quarter. And the free cash flow up 28%, I think is noteworthy. It delivered for the full year above our target of $800,000,000 which is about a 90% conversion rate.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And I think of note, this cash flow performance absorbs continued increases in our CapEx investments. Those investments continue to be really important for driving capacity in our high growth areas and getting productivity out of the system. And that CapEx for us over the past three years has doubled. So that free cash flow is really helping finance that and we think those projects are quite good and give us good returns. I think let's unpack the performance now by segments and I'm going to start with the Utility segment on Page five.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And again, you can see solid operational performance with double digit operating profit growth at about 1.5% of margin expansion. The sales growth of 4% was driven by the acquisition of Systems Control. It's also supported by double digit growth in our transmission and substation product areas as well as in protection and controls. And that was partially offset by the weakness we continue to feel in the telecom enclosures area where we're down 20%, and in the Utility Distribution Products area where we're continuing to experience customer inventory rationalization. We believe that that is starting to isolate in the distribution products set only and specifically with the larger investor owned utilities as opposed to the munis and co ops.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

So we can see that inventory issue getting narrowed into a pretty finite area. The operating profit driven the growth of 12% up to 22.9% margin is really driven by managing price again as well as productivity benefits from prior year investments and the new acquisition of systems control coming in not only providing dollars, but coming in at attractive margins. So kind of underscoring and highlighting where Gerben was commenting on the capital allocation, you can see really helping the utility segment here in the I think two areas of note that I would add, we talked about sales in the distribution products area, and I think it's important to talk about orders. So the orders in the on the transmission and distribution area were solid. We saw the customers as we say queuing up for 25 deliveries rather than looking for shipments to be received in Dec.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

0. And that book to bill in the grid infrastructure area was above one for the first time since A favorable order trend actually continued through Jan. 0 into our new year here. And so we think that above one book to bill is strongly suggestive that the effects of the destocking we've been experiencing are fading here in 2025. The second area of note is the grid automation sales being down 11%.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

I think it's important to point out the challenging comparison. The had growth of 37%, so super normal growth that had been driven by us delivering on the backlog and the breakthrough of the chip shortage. In addition, we had some project roll offs in a lumpy business, So three strong quarters of growth and then the contracting. We're expecting because the compare was also strong in the So we're expecting this kind of trend to continue in and then improvement through the balance of after that. We thought it would be worthwhile to pull back the lens on Utility from the to the full year.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And on Page six, we provided you with an image of some of the headwinds and tailwinds and some of the moving pieces that we navigated through. And I think we think showing you the resilience of our business model and its ability to perform despite some headwinds and we think this also illustrates a strong setup for 2025. So thinking about headwinds on the page, looking into specialty infrastructure, which is the business unit that has both enclosures and our gas distribution products. We've been talking to you all year about the softness there. We've been talking about strong declines in percentage terms, but also a high margin business.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And so the combination of that leads to the significant headwind that you see there. But the addition of systems control and again underscoring Corbin's point about capital allocation investing in the substation market, which offers us high growth as well as high margins. And so you see a really strong contribution to twenty four. It happens to be an area that is experiencing good book to bill and backlog build. And that backlog gives us a strong visibility to 25 and is supportive of us having a high single digit growth expectations for that business unit this year in 2025.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And so strong contributor in its first year and expecting continued strength in its second year. In the T and D area, we talked about the distribution side having the temporary effects of the inventory being managed down by both the channel and the end user, but we grew mid single digits driven by the strength in transmission and substation. So you can see positive contribution from T and D infrastructure. And you also see the positive contribution from grid automation. We talked about how it ended and that's the end of the It's really driven inside the meters and comms side.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

There's the grid protection and controls products also in there. Those are strong growth, and we're expecting that to continue into 2025 as well. So in some, we're feeling that for 2024 generating 9% operating profit growth and again reminding ourselves that we're compounding now on top of 50% growth over the prior two years of 2022 and 2023. And we think this is really showing, privy to our strong position. We've got quality products, quality customer relationships and we're getting those customers the high quality products at the right time and the right price.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And we think that shows that we're poised to grow and the two temporary areas of softness in 2024, we think are both inflecting to the positive for 2025. So, Gurbin is going to give you the outlook, but we think this is a good setup for us in Utility. So Page seven, I'm going to go back to the Electrical segment and the perspective. And you see the benefits of this multi year transformation of the Electrical segment continuing where we see strong execution in with 10% operating profit growth and about 3.5 points of margin expansion. The top line is down slightly when you exclude the divestiture of resi and when you exclude the impact of our PCX acquisition, which is in the mix of product redesign with a key customer that really caused a four point drag to the segment in the quarter and not unlike systems control, PCX also with some visibility backlog and give us some confidence and a strong 25.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

But we also in the top line had strength, renewables and data center balance of system. Our light industrial markets were very strong and I would contrast that to some of the softer trends in commercial and heavy industrial. I think operating profit up double digits has been driven by the exit of the resi lighting and strengthening the margin profile of the segment, good price and productivity improvements. And Ruben referred to the business simplification and efficiency initiatives that it has a multi year still in front of it benefit to come. So we feel there is we're looking at a multi year roadmap here of a strong quarter for Electrical segment, strong year and looking forward to strong contributions next year and turn it back to Durbin to share our outlook for 2025.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Great. Thanks, Bill. I will end our prepared remarks with a brief overview of our 2025 outlook, starting with organic growth expectations on Slide eight. We anticipate 4% to 5% organic growth in 2025. This is consistent with the mid single digit long term framework we provided at our Investor Day last June.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And our expectations by markets are consistent with the early preview we shared with you in Oct. 0. We anticipate 4% to 6% organic growth in our Utility Solutions segment as we are well positioned to continue capitalizing on electrification driven load growth and interconnection projects across transmission, substation and grid protection and controls markets. While we expect our meters and AMI business to decline year over year in 2025, we are confident that telecom markets and high margin utility distribution markets will return to growth. In Electrical Solutions, we anticipate three percent to 5% organic growth in 2020 five percent and we continue to make significant progress in our transformation of the HES segment to compete collectively in high growth verticals and we expect GDP plus growth in 2025.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Most notably, we anticipate mid teens growth in our data center business as artificial intelligence drives accelerated build out of large projects and we anticipate solid mid single digit growth across renewables and electrical T and D markets. While macroeconomic uncertainty drives a more muted outlook in commercial and heavy industrial markets, we see high visibility to continued electrical mega project activity driving relative strength across light industrial markets. Turning to Slide nine, we anticipate mid single digit organic growth and continued adjusted operating margin expansion to drive full year adjusted earnings per share of $17,.35 to $17,.85 and free cash flow conversion of at least 90% of adjusted net income. We expect 2025 performance to primarily be driven by volume growth and we are confident that our unique leading positions in attractive end markets will enable us to achieve these targets. We continue to proactively manage pricecost productivity across our portfolio and we expect positive contributions from PCP and restructuring benefits, partially offset by a return of investment spending needed to drive further growth and productivity initiatives.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

From a non operating standpoint, we anticipate a higher year over year tax rate and other expenses to be partially offset by lower net interest expense. I am confident in our ability to deliver on our initial 2025 outlook, which represents continued attractive growth across our key financial metrics and would reflect an adjusted earnings per share and adjusted operating profit CAGR above 20% over a five year period. With that, let me turn the call over to Q and A.

Operator

Thank you.

Operator

Our first question comes from the line of Jeffrey Sprague from Vertical Research. Your line is open.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Just back to kind of the channel inventory situation, obviously been frustrating for us and I'm sure for you how long this has taken on, taken to kind of correct itself. I just wonder if you could really speak to your level of visibility because I think when it comes down to it, no one really had that much visibility in the channel. But now you're making a very granular point about IOUs versus muni.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

So maybe just the significance of that comment, what it portends for how much more inventory might be out there and how much longer to the residual clears?

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Jeff, good morning. Let me maybe start with that and you're right to point out it's been frustrating to try to pinpoint this down. I would say, we break it down between IOU and public market, A, because our visibility is better on the IOU and that's where we believe it to be most pronounced right here. So if you break down the IOUs, within that we have a subset of that, which we call our VIP customers, it's where we have long standing relationship, where we have perhaps the best visibility that we can have. And after our discussions initially with the channel, where that started to normalize, turned over to, okay, let's look at the end customer or the end user where it still exists, that's where we started to look.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

So we started to have much better visibility of where they were. They were quite elevated in the year and they were not at the same level. So different customers started to go after this more aggressively than other customers depending on where they were in the country, other things that affected it when storms hit, we saw certain customers bringing their inventory faster than others. So that's where we have the best visibility. That's as we continue to track it, Jeff, we're starting to see that that's starting to now mute.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And I would say it's going to get better from here for sure as some are now starting to get through this. I would say this isn't an event that you can call a date from and it's over. So I think even if we go into this year, we'll see some remnants of it, but the important part is we're starting to see a return to growth. The other thing that I'd point out in the public market that we also measure, actually through 2024 actually we started to see a return to growth and that also through conversation with these people that were much less stocked up and as a result didn't have to destock. So we've gotten smarter, I would say, throughout the year.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

We've gotten more analytical in trying to call this, it's I would say, still imperfect. But what we really feel good about is that we're starting to see now a return to growth that I think will I wouldn't call it an inflection, but I would call it a positive signs that that's the constructive to why we're providing the outlook for 25% that we are.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Just maybe to clarify, Gurman's use of the word public there is referring to muni and co ops where we actually grew mid single digits. So Jeff, that's we're kind of distinguishing between those two because you could kind of see that market segment kind of buying and installing at the same rate. And so you can really isolate it to the IOUs.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Great. Thanks for that. And then given that people are still drawing inventory, it certainly follows that no one is pre buying inventory because of tariff concerns and that sort of thing. But I wonder if you could give us a little bit of updated perspective on what percent of your COGS might be exposed to Mexican, Canadian, Chinese tariffs if things do happen as volatile that we've seen this week?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes. So I think, Jeff, as you can imagine, we've been spending a lot of time planning both commercially and operationally around the tariff question. I think starting with the Chinese parts, back in 2018 when the first tariff regime came through, we had some exposure there that was largely driven by our lighting businesses, both the C and I lighting as well as the resi lighting. We've since disposed of both of those and hence dramatically reduced our Chinese exposure. We've also been one of the industrials who's been affecting some reshoring, so further reducing the Chinese exposure.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

So at this point, quite small exposure there. I guess we could argue of the moving pieces that's maybe the piece that has some clarity and it's got it would have a very small impact to us that we would navigate through a combination of price and productivity. With Canada Mexico, obviously still a very fluid situation from our perspective. You had executive orders signed on Saturday. You had discussions with presidents and premiers on Monday that put a delay on things.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

But as you kind of ask, we've been working really hard on our commercial side, developing pricing regime by kind of business unit by product to ensure that we would be able to navigate any effects from the tariff. We're obviously calculating other productivity moves and supply chain moves as well as calculating currency moves. And so ultimately, Jeff, while it's very unclear to us what the what actually is going to happen here. I mean, again, remind us in 2018, the initial tariffs that were announced ended up having exceptions and moving around quite a bit. We have a Commerce Secretary is not confirmed, the Trade Ambassador is not confirmed, right?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

So our assessment, Jeff, is quite a fluid situation and we're preparing ourselves to absorb and neutralize any effects that would ultimately be landed on by the policy.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And actually, let me go ahead.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Go ahead.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Go ahead.

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

Yes. I mean, we haven't quantified it, Jeff. It's number two after The U. S. And we'll give that data as tariffs come in and don't want to provide any false precision at this point.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Brad, I'll leave it there.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes, we are a predominantly U. S. Centric company. Maybe that's too early, but both in our sales, both in our footprint, we do have a few facilities in Mexico. One is pretty sizable one, very, very efficient to our operation, but the vast majority of manufacturing happens in Automotive.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

The other thing that I would say and Bill alluded to a little bit, our preparedness for this, I can tell you, we will be taking a very aggressive approach in the timing of when these things hit to react it. Of course, we're working on productivity as well. If you see currency devalue or the dollar strengthen, that will lead us to start discussions with suppliers on that front. But there's no doubt that when this happens to this magnitude that was on the table here up until yesterday that that's going to require pricing and we're going to act with speed on that.

Jeffrey Sprague
Founder and Managing Partner at Vertical Research Partners

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. One moment for our next question. In the interest of time, can you please limit yourself to one question, one follow-up? Our next question will come from the line of Nigel Cole from Wolfe Research. Your line is open.

Nigel Coe
Managing Director at Wolfe Research, LLC

Hi, guys. Good morning. So Bill, respectful of the answer you gave, Jeff, it is sort of a key topic in the market right now. I mean, there's some out there with a like a mid teens proportion of Mexico COGS. Is that in the right ballpark?

Nigel Coe
Managing Director at Wolfe Research, LLC

Too high, too low? I mean, any sense would be helpful.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, you're in the right ballpark.

Nigel Coe
Managing Director at Wolfe Research, LLC

Okay, that's helpful. And then just thinking about the Electrical margins in the '20 I think that's the first time you've ever had a two handle on that in that segment. I know lighting is a mix benefit year over year, but just think about that sequential improvement from to Normally margins are down. Just wondering, is there anything unusual in that number? Then thinking about the 2025 view, is it two handle for the full year 2025 on the table here?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes. Let's start with the sequential comment. And I would say, Nigel, nothing particularly unusual. I would agree with you. It's historically a good benchmark for us to hit.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

I do think we had some lower growth, lower margin lighting businesses that were I think frankly obscuring a little bit some of the strength of the balance of our electrical products. And again, I think you saw some great growth in areas like data centers, like renewables, like light industrial areas. And I think you saw some good drop through in some high margin areas of those products help. And so as we think about '25, I think those are the areas that are continue to be strong. And so I don't see any kind of mix pullback or anything that would work against this Nigel.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Maybe the only thing I could add, Bill, in the that we saw is the mix between PCX and Boerne, right? So that we saw decline a little bit as we go over to that design change going into 2025 and burn it actually strengthened and that creates a little bit of a favorable mix for the quarter. But I agree with your point is that segment as a whole still has opportunity to drive margin expansion over the next few years and that's what they're focused on.

Nigel Coe
Managing Director at Wolfe Research, LLC

Great. Okay. Thanks guys.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Thank you.

Operator

One moment for next question. Our next question comes from the line of Steve Tusa from JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Steve Tusa
Steve Tusa
Managing Director at JP Morgan

Hey, good morning guys.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Hey, Steve.

Steve Tusa
Steve Tusa
Managing Director at JP Morgan

Would you say it's closer to 20% or no, I'm just kidding. On pricing, what was price in the quarter for each of the segments and what are you assuming for each end of this year?

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

It was a positive in both segments, Steve. Less than a point overall, a little bit more in Electrical than Utility.

Steve Tusa
Steve Tusa
Managing Director at JP Morgan

And then in those discussion

Steve Tusa
Steve Tusa
Managing Director at JP Morgan

with these utilities, first of all, how big like as a percentage of those VIP customers? And is there any how did those pricing discussions play out? And then just lastly, if you guys could give a little bit of color on the seasonal dynamics for earnings. I think last year you were around 22% of the year in EPS. Should we be in and around that number in the just to calibrate us?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Maybe let me start with the seasonality question first and then we'll go back to the utility customer questions to you. But so we would anticipate that the would contribute in the same sort of low 20s ballpark to the EPS of 2025 same as 2024 but also pretty similar seasonality wise. It is note I think just to note that we would be anticipating growth in the over prior year to be a little bit less than GURBIN's four to five full year growth. So just kind of thinking about the I do think it's going to be normal seasonality and the growth rate on a compare basis will be better in the next three quarters.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And maybe to your question around pricing and the discussions around pricing, I mean, this is certainly a topic that's front and center to our customers. Actually, the positive is they're reaching out and they want to proactively find out what our approach is going to be to it. We've seen actually some of our distributor partners actually already with letters out to the market, kind of providing some insight of kind of what there are possibilities are coming. So from that perspective, Steve, I'd say it's very much something that's expected to happen. What generally our partners and our customers ask for is a little bit of time so that they can pass it through.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

And in two step distribution, as you can imagine, right, we pass it to our distributor partners who then have to pass it on to their customers. So it's generally much more about discussions around the timing and kind of the magnitude than it is whether it's coming up. So we feel good about A, the need is absolutely there, especially at these kind of magnitudes to get price. We've proven to be able to be successful at it. And I'd say the discussions that we're having with VIPs, those would be, I'd say, perhaps more transparent and they're just closer partners to us than to the general market.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

I'd say it's constructive to the actions that we would have to take.

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

And just

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

on the price in 4Q, more than a point in the quarter.

Steve Tusa
Steve Tusa
Managing Director at JP Morgan

Okay. Thanks for the color. Great charts, Dan. Thanks.

Operator

One moment for next question. Next question comes from the line of Julien Mitchell from Barclays. Your line is open.

Julian Mitchell
Equity Research Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Hi, good morning. Maybe I just wanted to good morning. Just to focus on the operating margin guide that's kind of embedded. So I think adjusted margins are up about 90 bps in the year just finished. For 2025, is it sort of 50 bps or so of increase?

Julian Mitchell
Equity Research Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

And any color around what we should expect in terms of operating margin performance at each of the two segments?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, I think you've got the calculation right. I think if you did incrementals on the growth, you could develop a model that could get a little more margin expansion than that. And we wanted to be explicit with our investment expectations and some of the non op stuff to make it clear that not all of that incremental would land. And I think when you think about it between the segments, I think that as Nigel was getting at, I think on the electrical side, you've got this question of good margin products being high growth areas and that's positive to the story. But also they're doing a lot of investing in efficiency areas and taking up some disparate businesses and having them compete collectively and things like unifying the sales force and simplifying back office steps.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And so there's some sort of good old fashioned grinded out margin work in Electrical as well as good margin growth and mix benefits. I think on the utility side, it's much more driven around getting this volume back and delivering the incremental. So it's I think you're right to point out that that kind of margin expansion, it kind of comes through the volumes coming back.

Julian Mitchell
Equity Research Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

That's great. And then just following up on the utility growth outlook. So you have a lot of good color on Slide six and eight on that. Maybe just to hone in a little bit on that utility meters and AMI portion. So we're right in thinking that that piece slash grid automation is down maybe low double digits still in the the year as a whole down high single and you're sort of stable ish exiting the year.

Julian Mitchell
Equity Research Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Is that the right way to think about it? And any way to parse out sort of is it just outright customer spend cuts versus destock type activity?

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Maybe I'll break it down because I think what you said is grid automation, which is the larger base, particularly within grid automation where we've been talking is the meters and AMI. So I think what the numbers kind of you quoted are, they're actually correct for that part of the business. But we still expect despite those challenges from those product lines, grid automation as a whole, that has some very attractive areas that are growing double digits to still slightly grow for the full year in 2025. But what you quoted is correct for the subset of upgrade automation.

Julian Mitchell
Equity Research Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Great. Thank you.

Operator

One moment for next question. Our next question comes from the line of Chris Snyder from Morgan Stanley. Your line is open.

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

Thank you. I appreciate the question. So it sounds like the company expects the organic growth positive in and probably solidly so, albeit below

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

the 4%

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

to 5% for the full year. So is the expectation that the four point electrical headwind from the PCX design change is totally gone in And then is there any way to size the headwinds in related to some of the year end inventory availability or variability, I should say, that you referenced in the opening remarks? Thank you.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, Chris, let's start with your PCX question. Yes, we're anticipating that to be bouncing in And sorry, what was the just remind me the

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

variability on inventory into year one, it sounds like the destock was maybe a little bit sharper due to some maybe customer specific reasons. So yes, if you could size that?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes. I mean, we wouldn't I don't think we would size it for you. And I'd just say I'm just hoping that this may be our last earnings call where we spent a lot of time on the word destock or customer inventory management.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Because I do

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

think that as we see the order book in the and through Jan. 0, I think we're seeing that issue fading.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes. And I think maybe to reiterate, it's as I stated for it's a gradual right now incline. It's not everybody has done on the same date and then it inflects, but it's definitely a positive move into 2025.

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

Thank you. And then maybe just a follow-up on the point about inventory I mean, orders are getting better in the back half of and continuing that into Jan. 0 with book to bill going back above one. And this might be a hard one, but kind of when you kind of see the orders come through, is there any way or visibility to determine kind of what's true demand coming from the market versus potential tariff pre buy or customers trying to get ahead of some of the tariff inflation that may come? Thank you.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes, I'd say that that's hard. I would say on tariffs, the one thing that we do is when those come, we really watch the order patterns because what we don't want to have happen is for our customers to get ahead of us because that, of course, would have implications to capturing the tariffs. So we look at typical order patterns by customer and if they start exceeding and we start to unless there's a real project that's happening, we watch over that. So can you have some of that? Of course, it could, but I don't believe that that we're going to do the things we need to do to prevent that from being a big bubble ahead of tariffs.

Chris Snyder
Chris Snyder
Executive Director at Morgan Stanley

Thank you. Appreciate that.

Operator

One moment. Our next question Our next question comes from the line of Tommie Moll from Stephens. Your line is open.

Tommy Moll
Managing Director at Stephens Inc

Good morning and thank you for taking my questions.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Hey, good morning. Good morning, Tommie.

Tommy Moll
Managing Director at Stephens Inc

I wanted to start on the topic of inventory management and electric distribution. Lots been discussed already, but one item we haven't explored is with these VIP customers that you referenced, are you able to tell, let's say, in 2024, what their, I'll call it consumption rate or install rate of these skews was? If we're really trying to get to what the market demand looks like last year, do you feel like that was still a positive trend?

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes. I'd say, one of the things that we have discussed, maybe not on an SKU basis of what they're installing, but we look at the CapEx and the OpEx budgets, those are generally the conversations we have with them on what they're installing. Oftentimes what the discussions there are, they give us kind of the plans of projects that they're going to be implementing in the years in the year ahead and are we prepared with our capacity to support that. The other thing is not with the IOUs, but in the public power market, we actually saw growth in 2024. So that gives us confidence that the markets are growing.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

So while not at an SKU level, between the CapEx budgets, the more general discussions and what we're seeing in parts of the markets, we feel that the install rate is growing.

Tommy Moll
Managing Director at Stephens Inc

Thank you, Gurbin. That's helpful. I also wanted to touch on M and A today. Just going back to your most recent Investor Day, the pulling more dollars in the form of M and A was one of the key themes there. And so it's a two part question.

Tommy Moll
Managing Director at Stephens Inc

What can you tell us in general about the pipeline for this year? And then also maybe just to hit on the recent rumors of a rather large transformer deal on the market. Any comment you can make on appetite or lack thereof for transformers would be appreciated as well? Thanks.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, Tommy. So as coincidence would have it, we closed on a deal yesterday. It is a add on to the Electrical segment, small in size, sort of in the $70 ish million purchase price area. And it helps with both powering and controlling around wireless networks and it's just a bolt on for an acquisition we did a few years ago, a company called Acceltex. And so a good example of a kind of maybe typical Hubbell size, not moving the needle of balance sheet or earnings per share per se, but the kind of deal that we think we can add a lot of value to and something that we're trying to invest in high growth situation with high margins and that's something that we just landed yesterday.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

You're asking about the pipeline. I would say, again, the balance sheet is really well poised to support investing. The team is really busy. We're looking at a variety of sizes, variety of sources from whether they be private equity sellers or corporate sellers or families. So it's still continued to be robust dialogue across opportunities in both segments, electrical and utility, and we'd like to continue as you pointed out to be an active investor here.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

And I think I would decline comment on any specific target that you mentioned.

Tommy Moll
Managing Director at Stephens Inc

Fair enough. Thank you. And I'll turn it back.

Operator

Thank you. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Christopher Glynn from Oppenheimer. Your line is open.

Christopher Glynn
Christopher Glynn
Equity Analyst at Oppenheimer Holdings

Thank you. Good morning, guys. So you talked a bit about the Hubbell unification process for ATS and multi year efficiencies coming ahead. We could see it very visibly in the renewables and data center growth trends. Curious, if you could comment on where you're seeing other benefits play through or maybe the balances coming through, but I'm thinking in terms of pricing power realization,

Christopher Glynn
Christopher Glynn
Equity Analyst at Oppenheimer Holdings

service levels,

Christopher Glynn
Christopher Glynn
Equity Analyst at Oppenheimer Holdings

what other instances of yield are you seeing on the unification currently?

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes. I think you're mentioning some of it. It's what we call competing collectively. So not just in the high growth verticals, but overall in our portfolio where you have strong positions with some of our really leading brands and can those help pull through other brands of Hubbell. We've seen that happen.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

We're continuing to drive simplification in our business systems in the back office. So it's not one thing. I mean, our restructuring will continue to be elevated in that area of the next couple of years with site consolidations. So I see this as a maybe we've harbored this some low hanging fruit early on, but I'd say over the next few years, we still have benefits both on growth from these efforts and on efficiency on the cost side.

Christopher Glynn
Christopher Glynn
Equity Analyst at Oppenheimer Holdings

Okay. And then one on pricing, just I think you've had some discovery the past few years on your pricing power as a business with your market positions. And would you say you're at kind of a new normal of sustainable pricing power posture that's different from where you were a few years ago, just based on understanding of the business that has developed over the past few years?

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes, I'd say so. I mean, certainly the magnitude of the pricing that we've been active over the couple of years, we haven't been anticipating that that's going forward. Now of course, when tariffs hit and to the extent to that magnitude, we're going to have to. But yes, I would say, certainly the success that we've had in that over the last few years, not just in the magnitude of it, but in the speed by which we've acted on those, we've learned a lot. So I'd say, yes, we've gone to become a and we've organized around it better.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

So I think we're more capable in that area today than we would have been in a number of years ago.

Christopher Glynn
Christopher Glynn
Equity Analyst at Oppenheimer Holdings

Okay. Thanks, Gerben.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Thank you.

Operator

One moment. Our next question comes from the line of Joseph O'Dea from Wells Fargo. Your line is open.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

Hi, good morning.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Good morning.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

Hi.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

Can you talk about again on the kind of electrical distribution, but thinking through the mid single digit growth expectation in 2025? And if you could just frame how much it was down in 2024, it would seem like you've got a relatively easy comp and that mid single digit growth is something that we think about as potentially being more like through cycle growth. And so just trying to think through the upside potential to that, but also some of the dynamics in the market and if you're still seeing kind of budget prioritization toward tea and more sophisticated tea that could be a pressure point?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

That's an interesting question because I do agree there's something sort of in the long term mid single digits and the compare is easier. So is there a path to do better certainly if the market and orders are there, we think we'll get our fair share. So it's an interesting question.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

Okay.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

And then also on telecom, I thought that the comps are going to be easier in the so still down 20%, maybe just kind of missed that. But did that come in a little softer than expected? And similar kind of question like why wouldn't the growth be better than low single? Maybe just some historical perspective on how strong 2023 was perhaps, just understand kind of telecom dynamic?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, 2023 was really strong. So that part is there. I do think your point, the comps were getting easier in and so we've kind of had 403020% kind of percent declines. And so we're layering into a much easier situation. So as you point out, we're starting to look at orders, look at getting the flattening of that and then enabling the growth, which is what we're seeing.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

So I do agree with you, we're coming off very strong growth in 2023, which makes the compares hard and the compares are easier. But the facts are we're going to be running a smaller Enclosures business than we were before and we should be able off of this lower base as you point out, we should be able to grow it. And there's lots of active RFQs and RFPs and etcetera out there. So we're trying to gauge all that.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes. And I would say for that, we want to remain very disciplined in how we grow that and how fast we grow that because that's an area that in this decline we've seen pricing decline and that's maybe an outlier from the rest of our business. So as that grow, we want to make sure that we capture attractive business and not just capture sales growth. So that drives a little bit on why we're more muted on what the growth rate could be as we want attractive growth.

Joseph O'Dea
Joseph O'Dea
Managing Director at Wells Fargo

Understood. That's helpful color. Thank you.

Operator

One moment for our next question. Next question comes from the line of Brett Lindsay from Mizuho. Your line is open.

Brett Linzey
Brett Linzey
Executive Director at Mizuho Financial Group, Inc.

Hey, good morning all. Wanted to come

Brett Linzey
Brett Linzey
Executive Director at Mizuho Financial Group, Inc.

back to the large meter in the AMI project roll offs that you noted in the release. Can you frame the size of the exit backlog in terms of months or weeks? And then was the softness more a comparison issue or have you actually seen the inbound orders in those larger meter AMI slow commensurately with the decline in sales?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes. I mean, I think if you thought about the comp, I think you basically need to start backfilling the orders. And so you can see what's out there, what RFPs are coming. And so we can just see that there's going to be a that's kind of feels and looks a lot like the And then with the visibility that we think we have, Brett, it feels like the balance of the year can start to improve from there.

Brett Linzey
Brett Linzey
Executive Director at Mizuho Financial Group, Inc.

Okay, great. Got it. And then just a follow-up on the growth and the productivity initiatives within the guide and the bridge. Certainly a bigger figure relative to last year, able to parse out that between growth and productivity? And then how do the paybacks look on those investments?

Brett Linzey
Brett Linzey
Executive Director at Mizuho Financial Group, Inc.

And is there any hedge in that? Thanks.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes. The paybacks on the projects are really good. The growth have slightly better paybacks than the productivities, but even the productivities can be kind of in the three years and there's a mix and balance and we will continue to make specific go, no go decisions on specific projects as the year unfolds. So I wouldn't want to give you a mix right now because it could change once we green light. In other words, we have more projects on the board than we do.

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

But we're very happy with the returns. It's a good use of capital for us for sure.

Brett Linzey
Brett Linzey
Executive Director at Mizuho Financial Group, Inc.

Okay. Thanks for the detail.

Operator

Thank you. One moment for next question. And our final question comes from the line of Chad Dillard from Bernstein. Your line is open.

Chad Dillard
Analyst at Bernstein

Hi, good morning guys. Thanks for taking my question.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes, good morning.

Chad Dillard
Analyst at Bernstein

So my question is on the telecoms business. So just trying to get a sense for how much margin pressure you've seen since that business was at its height. And then I guess what are your thoughts on potentially rightsizing the business versus keeping scale to capture incremental growth?

William Sperry
William Sperry
Executive VP & CFO at Hubbell

Yes, I would say, at its height, the margins were at the high end of our portfolio. Now they're still attractive, and we have been rightsizing throughout 2024. And so we feel where we sit at this split second is rightsized and we're looking forward to as that volume comes back being able to grow off of our current base which is a substantially lower cost structure than we started the year with.

Gerben Bakker
Chairman, President & CEO at Hubbell

Yes. It's actually and it's constructive to what I said that our goal is not to grow it right back to what it was. And we've been very deliberate with our businesses to say scale the business back down to the current volume because otherwise what happens you get destroyed in your decrementals from the view of all that fixed costs. So what you're alluding to is exactly what we've done with that business to now be able to grow it profitable and be selective in what we go without the pressure of sitting on a ton of idle capacity.

Chad Dillard
Analyst at Bernstein

Got it. And I want to go back to a prior question on price. I think you mentioned that the pricing for the entire portfolio was less than 1% overall. Just want to confirm, was that a 4Q comment or was that more about 2025? And then secondly, I was hoping you could comment on the breadth of positive price that you're seeing across your portfolio.

Chad Dillard
Analyst at Bernstein

I'm just trying to understand just like how concentrated pricing tailwind is across the portfolio?

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

Yes, Chad. 4Q price was a little bit more than a point overall and a little bit more in electrical than utility. And I think broadly we're seeing favorable price across the portfolio with the exception of the telecom markets, which we've been talking about. So it's really just concentrated in that one area.

Chad Dillard
Analyst at Bernstein

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. And that concludes our question and answer session. I would now like to turn the call back over to Dan for any closing remarks.

Daniel Innamorato
Daniel Innamorato
Director of Investor Relations at Hubbell

Great. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for joining us and I'll be around all day for follow ups. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you for your participation in today's conference. This does conclude the program. You may now disconnect. Everyone have a great day.

Executives
    • Daniel Innamorato
      Daniel Innamorato
      Director of Investor Relations
    • William Sperry
      William Sperry
      Executive VP & CFO
Analysts
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Earnings Conference Call
Hubbell Q4 2024
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