RLI Q1 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
April 24, 2025
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Operator

Good morning, and welcome to the RLI Corp. First Quarter Earnings Teleconference. After management's prepared remarks, we will open the conference up for questions and answers. Before we get started, let me remind everyone that through the course of the teleconference, RLI management may make comments that reflect their intentions, beliefs or expectations for the future. As always, these forward looking statements are subject to certain factors and uncertainties, which could cause actual results to differ materially.

Operator

Please refer to the risk factors described in the company's various SEC filings, including in the annual report on Form 10 ks as supplemented in Forms 10 Q, all of which should be reviewed carefully. The company has filed a Form eight ks with the Securities and Exchange Commission that contains the press release announcing fourth quarter results. During the call, RLI management may refer to operating earnings and earnings per share from operations, which are non GAAP measures of financial results. RLI's operating earnings and earnings per share from operations consist of net earnings after the elimination of after tax realized gains or losses and after tax unrealized gains or losses on equity securities. I realize management believes these measures are useful in gauging core operating performance across reporting periods, but may not be comparable to other companies' definitions of operating earnings.

Operator

The Form eight ks contains a reconciliation between operating earnings and net earnings. The Form eight ks and press release are available at the company's website at www.rlicorp.com. I will now turn the conference over to RLI's Chief Investment Officer and Treasurer, Mr. Aaron Dieffendala. Please go ahead.

Aaron Diefenthaler
Aaron Diefenthaler
Chief Investment Officer & Treasurer at RLI

We'll start again. Thank you, Adam, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to RLI's first quarter earnings call of 2025. We'll be following our typical agenda today with opening remarks from Craig Kleithermes, President and CEO, followed by a summary of the financial results from Todd Bryant, Chief Financial Officer and an update on the insurance market landscape and our product portfolio from Jen Klobnoch, our Chief Operating Officer. After prepared commentary, the operator will queue up any questions, and Craig will close with some final observations.

Aaron Diefenthaler
Aaron Diefenthaler
Chief Investment Officer & Treasurer at RLI

Craig?

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Thank you, Aaron, and good morning, everyone. I'm pleased to report that we began our sixty first year of business with continued growth in book value and top line premiums while reporting a combined ratio of 82, a very good start and something to build on as we move through 2025. ROI is a unique franchise built on a foundation of customer service, ownership and talented people who value making a difference. Our narrow and deep underwriting and claim expertise, combined with a very diverse portfolio of specialty products give our underwriters the license to lean into disrupted markets, underwrite with discipline, select risks discerningly and take remedial action in underpriced or underperforming markets if needed. We have a healthy balance sheet that enables us to navigate and thrive through periods of market disruption.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

As respected coaches often advise their teams, act like you've been here before. In our case, we have. Whether it was the soft market years at the turn of this millennium, the financial stress and credit crunch of 02/2008, or the economic supply chain and contract uncertainty we faced during the COVID pandemic, ROI continued to grow profitably while delivering exceptional service to our customers. The insurance industry is now faced with the rising challenges of legal system abuse, trade disruption and economic uncertainty. We have owners who are empowered to execute and confidently manage through whatever the market presents.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

As Todd and Jen will go into in a minute, we remain focused on opportunities where we have the expertise to differentiate ourselves and the market supports adequate returns. It is never easy and there is always room for improvement. What sets ROI apart is that in our ownership culture, there is no place to hide. We tackle our challenges with a sense of urgency and try to keep them from becoming outsized. And we are committed to pushing ourselves by raising the bar in pursuit of excellence and continuously building on our strengths.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

We are playing the long game. I will let Todd and Jen share more detail on the financials and the market in general. Todd, you're up.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Thanks, Craig. Good morning, everyone.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Last evening, our first quarter release reflected operating earnings of $0.92 per share supported by solid underwriting performance and a 12% increase in investment income. As a reminder, per share data reflects the two for-one stock split that was due to shareholders at the end of twenty twenty four and payable in January. Underwriting income benefited from continued growth in earned premium and favorable prior year's reserve development across all three segments. The total combined ratio of 82.3 was up from last year's 78.5 on lower levels of favorable prior year's reserve releases and a slight increase in the underlying combined ratio. Although top line growth was mixed across segments, total gross premiums written increased 5% when compared to last year.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

On a GAAP basis, the first quarter net earnings totaled $0.68 per share versus $1.39 in Q1 twenty twenty four. This comparison is heavily influenced by the relative price performance of equity securities between periods and saw $45,000,000 of unrealized equity gains of last year turn to $42,000,000 of unrealized losses this quarter. The Property segment experienced a 6% decline in gross premium due largely to rate decreases in E and S property, which were modestly offset by continued growth in marine and Hawaii homeowners. Jim will have some additional color on subsegment market conditions. Contributing to property's bottom line was $17,600,000 of favorable prior year's reserve development, largely attributable to marine, E and S Fire and Hawaii homeowners offering a 13 loss ratio benefit.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Storm losses and catastrophe events totaled $12,000,000 which was comparable to last year. Losses from the California wildfires account for about half of that total. This quarter's catastrophe losses are almost entirely captured in this segment with very little attributable to package business and casualty. While property loss ratio declined modestly, the expense ratio increased two points driven by changes in our reinsurance compared to Q1 twenty twenty four and a higher amount of acquisition related expenses. That influenced the comparison between periods.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

All in, property had a great start to the year with a 57 combined ratio. For the casualty segment, we posted a 99 combined ratio for Q1 and remain cautious regarding wheels based businesses, including commercial transportation and auto exposure in the personal umbrella, something we discussed at length during the fourth quarter call. Although growth continues, the gross premium with gross premium up 14% over last year, our measured reserve approach influenced the level of overall favorable development in the segment, which totaled $5,100,000 during Q1 compared to $18,100,000 last year. General liability, commercial excess and sub segments within professional liability were the strongest contributors to favorable prior year's experience. Now this was partially offset by an increase in our wheels business reserves I referenced previously.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

We continue to approach more challenged coverages with rate increases and underwriting action to address casualty's current loss environment. Securities gross premium was relatively flat to last year and the first quarter combined ratio came in at 68.5%, below the 80.9% combined ratio in 2024. Underwriting profitability benefited from $8,300,000 of favorable development, which had a significant influence on the loss ratio. As a reminder, we recorded $2,000,000 of reinsurance reinstatement premiums last year, which weighed on the net earned premium in the comparable period. Operating cash flow for Q1 totaled $103,000,000 up $33,000,000 from last year and giving us a basis for portfolio activity that remains accretive.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Although treasury rates moderated during the quarter, fixed income purchases averaged 5.1% or 120 basis points above our book yield. Recent market volatility has not dampened our focus on putting money to work in investment grade fixed income, but the strength of our balance sheet allows us to also consider risk assets as valuations improve. Bond price improvements through March 31 were enough to overcome the decline in equities resulting in a positive 1.3% total return for the entire portfolio. Away from our traditional invested assets, our investee earnings turned positive again totaling $3,000,000 in the quarter as Prime's results were more stable than in the fourth quarter. Incorporating comprehensive earnings of $1.01 per share and adjusting for dividends, book value per share increased six percent from year end 2024.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Additionally, we announced an increase in our ordinary quarterly dividend to $0.15 per share, our fiftieth year of paying and increasing dividends. All in, we are very pleased with the start to the year. And with that, I'll turn the call over to Jim.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Thank you, Tom. We had an excellent start to the year with 5% growth and an 82% combined ratio for the first quarter. Increased competition in several areas of our portfolio has led to slower top line growth. However, our underwriting team continued to explore where competitors are pulling back, and we have found opportunities in the business they leave behind. We are being more selective on providing auto coverage as we have seen continued increased severity across our auto portfolio.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Our property and surety segments performed very well in the quarter given manageable loss activity. Let me provide more detail by segment. Casualty segment premiums grew 14%, which included a positive 9% rate change overall. Auto liability coverages provided within this segment achieved a 17% rate increase. Growth was once again driven by personal umbrella, where premium grew by 34%, which included a 15% rate increase in the quarter.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

The rate increase was down slightly from last quarter as some of last year's higher rate filings have worked their way through the book. We do have additional approved rate filings effective midyear that will help us continue to address loss cost trends. Due to the loss severity we have seen in this book, we are making several changes beyond rate. For example, we raised required underlying coverage limits in several geographic areas. We are also working with our producer partners to slow growth in problematic areas as we continue to focus on underwriting profitability.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

The E and S casualty brokerage group grew premium by 25%. This includes 18% growth in primary general liability business and 32% growth in excess liability. Rate increases are in the mid to upper single digits. We do have a long track record of underwriting profitability in the construction industry. Based on that starting point, our rate change may not be comparable to what other carriers disclose.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

There are admitted and non admitted markets who are pulling back in this business. Submissions have increased almost 20% for these loans. We're doing a good job of collaborating internally and offering an excess quote to support a primary liability opportunity and have been successful in binding more construction business in all regions of the country. The top line for other casualty products was fairly flat. The actions we are taking on auto are impacting our package businesses with rate increases staying ahead of loss trends.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Our transportation division grew by 6% while achieving a 15% overall rate increase. Our executive products group achieved a 3% increase in premium due to our producer outreach, even though rates continued to decrease by 4% in the quarter. And finally, we exited a couple of captive relationships that reduced premium by $6,000,000 in the first quarter. The market for casualty business varies significantly by product. While we are seeing carrier competitors increasing rates for most coverages, introducing some exclusions or exiting certain classes or geographies, we still see new markets and MGAs in particular who are willing to write business at lower rates with broader coverage.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

We rely on our local specialty underwriting team to stay abreast of their producers' needs and to continuously remind them of our risk appetite. We are ready to take their call and provide a quick quote or quick decline so they can move on. Based on our underwriters' efforts and deep relationships, we are well positioned take advantage of opportunities for long term profitable growth in the casualty segment. The property segment's premium declined by 6% while producing a 57 combined ratio. Our marine and Hawaii homeowners businesses continue to find opportunities for growth.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Marine premium was up 10% with a three positive 3% rate change. The marine market is challenging, but our underwriters have developed the ability to sift through a growing number of submissions to find the opportunities that make sense. Submissions were up 10% for the quarter with growth driven primarily by inland marine. Hawaii homeowners premium grew by 37%, which includes a positive 18% rate increase. We continue to benefit from our competitors pulling back in this market after the Hawaii wildfires.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

More recently, we are seeing a change in appetite with some markets reentering this space to varying degrees. E and S property is experiencing the most competitive market conditions in our product portfolio, with premium down 14% in the quarter. The property insurance market is known for large catastrophes and short memory, and the current market conditions reflect this. Competitors, particularly MGAs, who are compensated on top line growth, are very aggressive in the Florida wind market. They have increased line capacity and expanded terms and conditions while slashing rates.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

We continue to refine our underwriting guidelines to provide our underwriters the flexibility to compete on the best accounts. Although we saw a 14% decrease in CAT wind rates in the quarter, we believe this business is still very well priced. The earthquake market is also challenging given the increasing tendency of insurers to take this risk net. Our rates were down 6% in the quarter on the earthquake business. New business is hard to win in the E and S property space, but we are continuing to stay in front of our producers and letting them know we are a consistent, long term, reliable market for their customers.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

As I mentioned, the property segment performed well with a 57 combined ratio despite a heavy quarter of catastrophe losses for the industry. Will continue to look for areas to grow in this segment despite the increased competition. Matured segment's premium was down 1% in the quarter while posting a 69% combined ratio. The bottom line improvement was due to benign loss activity in the quarter this year compared to one large commercial energy loss posted in the first quarter last year. The top line was challenged because contract surety premium decreased by 10%.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

As this business focuses on public construction projects, we saw a slowdown in bid activity for larger multiyear projects influenced by tariff uncertainty. Our bond count actually increased, which means we're still seeing plenty of opportunities on smaller, quick turning jobs, which is our target appetite. Our commercial and transactional businesses were able to grow due to some new regional bonding requirements and our continued marketing efforts. Overall, we're very pleased with this quarter's results. In a quarter of elevated catastrophe loss activity for the industry and continued auto severity, we were able to post an 82 combined ratio.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

We are continuously improving our portfolio while focusing on bottom line results. Our underwriting teams are navigating increasingly difficult market conditions by regularly interacting with our producers in person to address their needs and by working with our claim and analytical teams to incorporate the trends and feedback they're hearing to ensure we continue to maintain discipline and write profitable business where available. This is what we do. And now I'll turn the call over to the moderator to open it up for questions.

Operator

Thank you. The question and answer session will begin at this time. And the first question comes from Bill Kakash from Wolfe Research. Craig,

Bill Carcache
Equity Research Analyst at Wolfe Research

following up on your comments around having managed the business through many business cycles, if uncertainty caused by tariff policy were to push The U. S. Economy into recession, could you give a little bit of insight into the ROI playbook? What would you adjust? What stays the same?

Bill Carcache
Equity Research Analyst at Wolfe Research

Where would you expect to see greater opportunities? Any color would be helpful.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Thanks, Bill. Yes, I mean, we've also managed our way through recessions in the past as well. I mean, big advantage we have obviously is a very diversified portfolio of products. Some are more impacted than others by recession. We do have a significant presence and percentage of our portfolio in the construction space.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

So obviously if construction slows significantly, it would put some pressure on us. Although I would say construction is a big segment for most specialty companies. I'm not sure our it would be outsized pressure on us, but certainly there would be pressure on exposure basis because sales and revenues would be going down of our underlying insurance, which would drive prices down or premiums down anyway. So that but also decreased activity also slows claims as well. So from a profitability standpoint, I don't know that we've managed our way through these before.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

I expect we would manage our way through them again. But certainly, that would create pressure on exposures. It's not limited to construction and beyond the auto transportation side, things like that. So the insurance industry insures the economy. So the way the economy goes is the way we go.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

I guess the offsetting that is if the end result of, I guess, the uncertainty that's being created today by tariff policy, if it would increase building more at home, investing more at home in America, since we are exclusively in The U. S, we would also be a proportion, I guess, benefactor of that as well. So obviously, more building in The US would create more opportunity for us. So that's pretty much what I would have to offer there.

Bill Carcache
Equity Research Analyst at Wolfe Research

And that inclusive of the impact of tariffs on loss cost inflation trends overall in that

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Usually loss cost inflation during recession drives the loss cost inflation would that probably help to us. It would probably offset some of the inflationary things that are going on right now. However, from a legal system abuse standpoint, that's a little more isolated from materials and labor inflation. So that needs to be addressed in a different way through tort reform as you've seen in Florida. You most recently saw in Georgia, although the impacts haven't been felt yet.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

You're seeing, I think, in Louisiana, they're trying to do that as well. Think that is what will help most meet the inflationary pressures on casualty business.

Bill Carcache
Equity Research Analyst at Wolfe Research

That's really helpful. Thank you. And then separately, Jen, following up on your commentary around seeing MGAs willing to more aggressively underwrite business at lower rates with broader coverages. Are you viewing this as a bit of a harbinger of undisciplined market behavior that could lead to more widespread challenges for the industry down the road and ultimately, know, something that that could potentially present some more opportunities for for for your business?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Yeah. So, Bill, we're very used to MGAs in our space. We we deal with them every single year. I think it's more irritable in property because they're they're affecting the market so aggressively, and it was such a great market that was going on. So to have them go so aggressively after the business is really putting a dent in what's available there.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

But but we do experience MGA competition on the cash and property side on a regular basis every year. Our business model is, you know, we're a very consistent market, very strong financially, so we're there for our producers and our insurers over time. They know what we offer. We stay in front of them. We have a pretty consistent risk appetite.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So we do tweak it over time, but because of our results, we're able to stay consistent and not make drastic moves from a pricing or a terms and conditions standpoint. So what happens is an MGA comes in, they start taking our business. They tend to blow up over time, and cash should take a little longer. Property sometimes you see that a little faster. And so then after they blow up, the the producers end up shifting that business back to us because they know we're still here.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And that's why sometimes our top line is not as consistent and and does you know, it can actually be reduced in some market conditions. But, again, we're focused on the bottom line and the consistency in being there for our producers and insurers. And so that's kinda how the the macro cycle plays out for us based on our business model.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

I guess I would just add to that. We've seen beyond NGAs as well. You've seen some unrated carriers that have come back into the market, particularly in Florida. You've seen Lloyd come back much more aggressively or I'll say as aggressively as they were before. As someone sitting a little bit removed from this and getting the reports on the ground.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

I mean, it's a bit disheartening how quickly the discontent rises in the insurance marketplace. The market is full of people that seem to be too smart for their own good. And many were the same people that created the contraction and the lost capacity and withdrew from the market because they lost their capacity from their reinsurers just a couple of years ago. They also were screaming that the sky is going to fall, and Milton was we thought Milton was going to hit possibly Tampa last year. And that just happens to be the same market that's doing what I would say is dumb things right now.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

So the lack of discipline is a bit disheartening for those companies that are a little more disciplined, I would say.

Bill Carcache
Equity Research Analyst at Wolfe Research

That's very helpful. Thank you so much for taking my questions.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Thank you, Bill.

Operator

The next question comes from Michael Phillips from Oppenheimer. Michael, please go ahead. Your line is open.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

Thank you. Good morning. You've talked you mentioned a little bit this quarter and certainly last quarter you expanded on personal umbrella auto book. Frequency flat, severity up, cautious view on that. Can you just kind of maybe hit that again?

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

And I assume frequency is still down. We've heard that before from others. But just remind us if that's still the case. And what does severity look like in your personal umbrella book today?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Well, if I look at personal umbrella, you know, we've been experiencing severity for a few years increased severity, I'll say, a few years now, and it's it's not subsiding. I think from our standpoint, we are trying to address this in in various ways. One is the obvious, which is rate, and we continue to regularly go back to each state with the filed product. So we have to go to each state and ask for a rate increase. We work through that process on at least an annual basis, but if we can if we need it and we and we can, we go and and try to get it even within a year.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And that's what we're in the process of doing again. We got, you know, our annual filing that's been approved in most states effective midyear. And so we start with rates, but we also look at trends within what claims are we getting and what's driving those claims. And that's where we've made some other changes. As I referenced, the increase in attachment.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

We see certain venues as being more problematic, and so we're working with our producer partners to not get as much new business in those venues. Looking more at the quality of the underlying insured, you know, do they have prior accidents or or other issues or larger exposures that we're not as comfortable with and slowing down, ensuring those new business opportunities in those particular venues. So that feedback loop between claims, our analytical folks, and underwriting is critical in informing our marketing teams on where we wanna target growth and where we wanna pull back. So we continue to do that. From a claim standpoint, we ramped up our our staffing.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And if anybody knows any excellent personal umbrella claim examiner, so we do specialize by product, we'd be happy to talk to them. But we have hired a few folks and are ramping them up to train them in how we do claim handling, which is to thoroughly investigate the claims and make sure that we are paying what we owe, but also addressing the shenanigans that the plaintiff's attorney put forth in the the various claims that are are presented to us. So it's a a number of factors that we work on with First Umbrella to stay ahead of us. We have regular conversations almost daily between those different groups to make sure that we're addressing things that come up as they do.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

So I guess I would just add that just to be clear that those conversations are going on between the underwriters that manage that business and the claim people that are dedicated to that business. I mean, obviously, we participate from time to time and we get reports out on what's going on, but we're not driving that behavior. That's being driven from the ground up. These people own these products. They get paid based on the underwriting profit that's delivered in these products.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

So they have a keen interest in trying to make sure that this product remains profitable. It's been one we've been in for a long time, 35, 40 And it's one that's been a very profitable product for us. But certainly, we have seen an increase in loss cost inflation. So I do think I would just expand upon Jim's point on the attachment points is that the attachment points that come with the higher the attachment point, usually there's a credit associated with attachment point. But a side benefit of having a higher attachment point is you have more skin in the game from your underlying claim examiners.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

When we're saying that about personal umbrella for us, obviously, that's a different company because ours is a stand alone personal umbrella. So this is having other people that are writing the underlying coverages, their claim examiners having a lot more skin in the game in regards to outcomes when they have a bigger limit exposed than a smaller limit exposed. So we think there's some additional benefits to that. And I also would note on the new businesses, we have grown a lot over the last several years in this business, and we've seen great opportunity. We've leaned into this opportunity.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

We also know that in this business particularly there is a call it a new business penalty associated with leaning in. We know that our new business have a higher loss ratio than our renewal business. So if we were to slow new business growth, we will probably get a benefit from that over time as those accounts season as those insurance season.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

I might add, Todd, one more thing that's consistent with that. I think we talk about the cautious approach on that personal umbrella side of the auto side in general, and Jim talked about the 17% rate that we're getting on the auto side.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

If you compare, think in terms of caution, where we started last year, if you look at where casualty's underlying loss ratio is about 1.5 higher than what we started last year, that increase is largely auto related. So we've increased our auto related loss booking ratio even while we're getting this rate increase and have been getting the rate increase now for a little bit. So that goes to bit of that caution as well.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

Yes. Okay.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

Thanks for all that detail. I guess, are you done with or what I mean, would you classify you're in with the, transportation books, nonrenewable large accounts?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Well, the job is never done. I would say as as we look at renewals, you know, we're constantly looking So transportation is a benefit that they do have losses, you could say, because we do rate based on loss experience. The key there is understanding if those loss reserves are real. So as we get new business in and we are looking at reserves from other carriers, we tend to be cautious and and maybe pessimistic about if those reserves are accurate or enough.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So as we price up that new business, you know, we try to understand what those claims that are already on the books look like to see what what that premium should be going forward. On our own business, you know, we try to get our reserves up as quickly as possible so that we can properly rate our renewals. And also, those, you know, insureds are shopping coverage that our competitors see the real cost that that could be coming with that insurance. So, you know, we evaluate annually then each of our insured. The added benefit we have is we have in house loss control where we have people who physically go out and visit our insureds and kick and kick them higher, so to speak.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So they do understand, like, what kind of maintenance are those insureds doing, what kind of training, how are they hiring their drivers, All those things that would indicate is this a a an account that really values doing business well and trying to be safe and avoid losses. And and if they do, we wanna really be fairly aggressive to maintain those insurers. And if they don't, then we have to either charge for it or, you know, work with them to try to make sure that, you know, we're aligned in our view of of the exposure there. So we're never done. Having said that, you know, we still have some large accounts on the books that we believe in and are supporting, but that rate that rate change reflects what we think we need to make sure that our portfolio is still making the underwriting profit at the end of the day.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

Okay. Thank you. Last one, if I could.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

I guess, any change in your philosophy of viewing the opportunities in California residential homeowners?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

California Residential. Residential. Sorry. So, you know Yeah. We have long boundaries here, and we we still go back to the Northridge earthquake, which is the last time we had an underwriting loss.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

At that time, we insured individuals. We had residential earthquake coverage, and dealing with individuals and dealing with the claim handling process. They nobody thinks their house is perfect. You got an endless list of things to tweak so that the claim handling process is extended and it's problematic. And I think our long memory is kind of skew our view of of personal lines business.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Now we do obviously support personal lines in Hawaii. That's a little different case because we have local folks who work very closely with insurers, and those aren't necessarily high value dwellings. I think the California market from the wildfires, the the largest disruptive piece is the high value homeowners. And, again, those tend to be difficult claims to come to a a good resolution on. So we don't have a different view.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I think we're still hesitant to get into that. We like to lean towards the commercial space.

Michael Phillips
Managing Director and Insurance Analyst at Oppenheimer & Co. Inc.

Okay. Thank you, Jen. Appreciate it.

Operator

The next question comes from Gregory Peters of Raymond James. Gregory, your line is open. Please go ahead.

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Good morning, everyone. I think in the prepared comments, you noted that there was some downward rate pressure on earthquake. I was wondering if you could go back and just give us some more color behind that. And also, can you talk about the reinsurance costs on quake? Or is that coming down commensurate with any rate pressure you're seeing?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So our earthquake exposure in California it's mainly in California, but it is, you know, in the other regions where the coverage is is possible as well. But I would say in California, it's it's it's fairly competitive. We have both carriers and MGAs that compete in that space. And because there hasn't been a loss in one time, let's knock on wood, you know, people see that premium to come extend as being free premium. Right?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I don't know that everyone appreciates the downside, particularly the MGAs. I don't think they appreciate the downside risk on that. The issue with California relates a bit to overall economic conditions where we, you know, we're insuring small businesses who have felt pressure from a number of rising costs from employees to supplies, you know, inventory, gas, everything that they do. And so this is another cost to them, this insurance, and it has been going up over time. And when the loss doesn't happen, they think, well, maybe I should just take that net or buy less or increase my deductible to the point where I don't have to pay as much.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And all of those factors have caused, that marketplace to to be more competitive because, you know, more people are taking that risk net, and so then there's less of a pot to fight over from the standpoint of the the remaining carriers and MGAs. So those are the market dynamics that we're dealing with. Our underwriters are trying to stay ahead of it by getting you know, communicating early on renewals, trying to put our best foot forward and work with our producers to to get that business in if we can. New business, though, it's very difficult. And what else makes it difficult is is the words.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I would say, you know, in all of these cases, words matter. We're producing a policy that delineates what we're gonna cover. And for us, we actually consider that there could be a loss. And so when we look at the words, we wanna be clear on definitions so that people know what's covered, what's not covered. We do have some sub limits, deductible, things of that nature.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

It seems like other carriers and MGAs, they're a little looser with the words. Again, they maybe they don't appreciate the fact that a claim won't happen. But when the claim happens, the only thing that matters is the words. And we believe that having certainty in our wording, and understanding what it says is going to help when a claim happens in the resolution of that claim, and understanding what our downside exposure actually is. So all that being said, I think your original question was about rate decreases.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And I would say, given those market conditions, that that's probably where the market's gonna be for a while. Can you also ask about reinsurance?

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Yeah. Also

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Yeah.

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Right.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

was gonna circle back on the reinsurance. The earthquake coverage is part of our overall catastrophe treaty. So we don't really I mean, there are separate rates, but we look at it as a as a full, you know, whole purchase. I would say, I don't know the earthquake rates. I mean, they kind of fluctuate based on what our exposure is, and our exposure has been coming down a bit over the last couple of years.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So we are paying less for that coverage at this point in time, a bit less. I don't know if it's commensurate with rate decreases on the primary side. I'd say, you know, those are those are, to some extent, disconnected because we do have the benefit of the wind and other perils within our cat treaty.

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Got it. Thanks for the detail. The other question I had just in your comments, Jen, you talked about the inland marine market. So I mean, inland marine is a broad category. Can you get more specific about what you're doing in the inland marine market and where the opportunities are?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Yes. So inland marine, we've grown that book for the last six or seven years very profitably, and we have a a larger team than we used to. So that's part of it, because we've got better coverage around the country. So, again, we focus on hiring talent locally that knows that area, knows producers in that area to produce that business. So having a larger team is one item.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

In addition to that, you know, I would say the construction market, the construction industry has been healthy, and a lot of marine coverages do touch that space. So from builders risk to contractors equipment to, you know, motor truck cargo, a lot of physical damage, all these coverages that we provide there are related to some extent to construction as well as other industries. And because of our local presence, we've been able to take advantage of those items. We've also partnered a lot more of the wholesalers in that space. They tend to get, I'll say, interesting risks.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And so we our phone lines are open. We like to entertain those things and talk to our producers about the uniqueness of some of the things that come in and see if we can help them provide some coverage. So we put out a lot of quotes and and see what what hits on that.

Gregory Peters
Gregory Peters
Managing Director at Raymond James Financial

Got it. Thanks for the answers.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Thanks, Craig.

Operator

The next question comes from Meyer Shields from KBW. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Meyer Shields
Managing Director at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods (KBW)

Great. Thanks so much. Two quick questions on transportation, if I can. First, when we talk about non renewing some of the larger accounts, is that like a definite decision by ROI to non renew? Or is it that you come in with a price increase and maybe terms and conditions that your, insureds aren't willing to accept?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

It's both. That's what you provided a good answer there, Mara. I would say some some of those larger accounts, have, you know, lost that we don't think is acceptable anymore. And so we go ahead and actively now renew those. In other cases, you know, we think that they need an increase, and so they start shopping, and they find somebody who's willing to do it for a lot less.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So all kinds of scenarios happen.

Meyer Shields
Managing Director at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods (KBW)

Okay. No. That's helpful. Maybe I should be on the other side of this phone. Second question, and I guess this is mostly for Todd.

Meyer Shields
Managing Director at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods (KBW)

If you look at the reserve triangle in the 10 ks, so transportation has had some accident years where ultimate losses are down 20% to 40% from the initial estimates. And I'm wondering when you do the reserve strengthening that you mentioned at this quarter, is it to get to sort of expected losses? Or does the reserving now incorporate the same sort of cushion that we've seen in past years?

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

Well, I think you get we're factoring all that in there. I mean, if you look let's see. If you just look quarter over quarter comparison to last year, I mean, transportation was was a little bit positive last year. Mhmm. Not so much this year.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

But, you know, you you have you may have I think 2023 was a year on on transportation this quarter that that has some adverse to it. So I think there is a a measured approach to looking at all of that, factoring all of it in, and probably more recent, as we've talked about, we tend to try and jump on things that having a bit of a challenge, that's what we're doing. So no difference in that approach.

Meyer Shields
Managing Director at Keefe, Bruyette & Woods (KBW)

Okay. That's perfect. Thank you so much.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Thanks, Barry.

Operator

The next question comes from Casey Alexander from Compass Point. Casey, your line is open. Please go ahead.

Casey Alexander
Senior Vice President & Research Analyst at Compass Point Research & Trading LLC

Yes. Two real quick questions. One is the tariff situation feels like it could cause a slowdown port activity and delivery and receipt of goods coming in and out of ports. Would that impact any of your transportation coverage? And then secondly, in construction, do you worry that a large increase in construction materials cost could slow down that construction market and impact your construction underwriting?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

That's a good question. So I would say, you know, this tariff situation is is kind of a replay of the COVID situation we had a few years ago. So we've just practiced what's gonna happen here in terms of economic slowdown and, you know, reduced shipping. I'd say in the first quarter, we did see some signs of increased shipping, I think, trying to get ahead of what was rumored to be a tariff situation. So we did see some increased shipping in our marine and our transportation divisions.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

That's where we see that mostly. And now we haven't necessarily seen it slow down, we anticipate it could. And, again, that's where we would see most of the impact of the miles driven for trucks to deliver those items or marine. We have a small cargo look in there where we we are, you know, receiving things or shipping things elsewhere. From a construction standpoint, again, it reminds me of COVID, where you had increased construction costs, which we build into, you know, the bidding process and how we quote business.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

A lot of our policies, particularly like in our cash and brokerage division, we can audit that premium to the end to see what does that construction project actually cost. So, you know, we already have all that in place, and that's how we do it normally, and and it would just, you know, incorporate these issues. Our feeling is from our underwriters is that this time, the cost is gonna be the issue. Last time, we had a scarcity issue as well. I'm not really thinking there'll be scarcity this time except things are gonna cost a lot more.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

And so we'll build in again. We're used to construction delays because of the time it takes to ship or, you know, getting your your supplies lined up from a cost standpoint. So we're we're pretty much used to this, and I think we'll just do it, you know, execute like we did during during COVID.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Casey, this is Craig. So I'll just add to what Jim said. So, I mean, I certainly, it's gonna create bidding uncertainty for smaller contractors. You know, they're they're more reluctant to bid on a project, if they don't know what their costs are. In this case, the only difference is we're talking about multipliers or multiples of it's not a shortage of supply and then maybe they can get it for paying a little bit more where supply and demand finally meet.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

I mean, this is a multiplier effect. So until this thing settles down, it could create some pressure on especially smaller, I'd say, contractors who are a little more reluctant to bid on something because if they've locked in the price of what materials are what's going to cost to build something and then it goes up significantly, I mean, could slow things down. I think in the long term, obviously, if there were tariffs that drive increased costs, I mean, one, we're always on top of valuations and making sure and this is one thing that Jen was talking about is maybe some of these less disciplined markets in GA. Don't care as much about valuations. They're willing to work off last year's submissions, things like that.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

We always look at valuations, whether it be the value of property, the value of the goods being moved. It's important to have great care of that because when you're offering business income coverage, you need to understand that if those costs are rising, it also increases premiums. So we actually get more premium from that increase. And if costs rise, the value of things rise, then that means like when you're offering a bond for a certain amount either to build or to move goods, that goes much higher, which means the premium goes a lot higher. So we're going to benefit.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

You lose on the loss side, you do, but you also benefit on the premium side. Over the long term, I think we view that as a relatively neutral thing. But certainly, in the short term, it can create uncertainty that could slow things down. And again, I would lean on the diversity of our portfolio that we have some products that are going to be more impacted than others. And I think the others will be much more stable.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

So I think overall, we feel like we've been here before and we can get through this again regardless of what happens.

Casey Alexander
Senior Vice President & Research Analyst at Compass Point Research & Trading LLC

Yeah. Well, and I appreciate that answer. I'm thinking as much from the standpoint that a significant increase in construction costs could cancel a lot of construction programs, which would reduce the volume opportunity that you might have. One other question is, know, there's been a real loss of of property capacity in California, and and many people have suggested that it's similar to where Florida was a few years ago before Florida had some legislative changes that that improved the profitability of the market, but it was while that capacity was out of the market that you guys took advantage to build a really significant and profitable property book in Florida. Do you see any similarities to California?

Casey Alexander
Senior Vice President & Research Analyst at Compass Point Research & Trading LLC

And are you sharpening your pencils at all on that market?

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Well, we certainly are looking at opportunities in California. This is Craig. But I would say there is a much different environment in California than there was in Florida even prior to tort reform in Florida. I mean, it was a much more inviting place to do business as a publicly traded company who has to figure out ways to make money over time. I would say Florida was much more inviting in regards to capitalism than perhaps Florida.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Well, I would add to that California. I'm sorry.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I would add to that, just an example, that is a rate filing. So even in some of our casualty businesses where we have to file rates you know, to get a rate change in Florida, it's a process, but they are are relatively easy to work with. For California, we've experienced, you know, difficulties and delays in in getting that rate that we need to stay in that marketplace. That's just one example, but it it is a more difficult place to work, and we don't see the, we're not as optimistic, that it will become a better place to to navigate.

Casey Alexander
Senior Vice President & Research Analyst at Compass Point Research & Trading LLC

Alright. Thank you.

Operator

The next question is from Andrew Anderson from Jefferies. Andrew, your line is open. Please go ahead.

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

Hey, good morning.

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

Looking at the Property segment session ratio, it seemed to be up a couple of points year over year. I'm not sure if there was a change in reinsurance or business mix change, but should we think of a higher session ratio for full year, year over year?

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

This is Todd. Yes. I think if you look compared to quarters, it is a couple of points. I think if you look across the year, we can have some variances in how much FAC has been used. We did add a second and third event coverage last year that we wouldn't have in the comparable period.

Todd Bryant
Todd Bryant
CFO at RLI

But if you look over the last two to three years, it has still been in that 72 to 73 range. So that we would think that's still still pretty reasonable in first quarter of last year would have would have been the one that was was a little bit higher.

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

Okay. And then just within casualty, some large cap peers are talking about some good opportunities within small commercial in the middle market. I think you provide a small commercial breakout at least in the quarterly filings. It has it grew 10% last year. Are you seeing kind of good opportunities within that segment of the market?

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

And could you just give us some color on on what small commercial segment is?

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

Sure. This is Jen. So our small commercial operation really targets the other coverages for our architect and engineers and other miscellaneous professionals where we lead with a professional liability coverage, but then we offer auto access types of coverages. In addition, we have a program that targets small contractors, and we offer them, you know, general liability and then some other coverages for their businesses. So those are our two main markets in that space.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

I would say we do see plenty of opportunities there. The issue has been that we've offered auto coverage in the past that has been challenging. Just similar to the results we've seen within transportation, a personal umbrella. And we wanna be sure that we're being selective in what we're offering and what types of insurers we're offering that coverage to. We've been increasing rates in that book as well for the auto coverages, and we've been, reducing coverage where we can.

Jen Klobnak
Jen Klobnak
COO at RLI

So, for example, where there's a required, u m u I m limit in a particular state, that's as much as we're gonna offer. We're not gonna match our other auto coverage limits. So we're being a little bit careful in that space on certain coverages, but we do appreciate the middle market business and are targeting to insure more of those types of insurance over time.

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

Thanks. And maybe quickly just on investment income. It was down a little bit quarter over quarter and maybe it looks like last year that was kind of in 1Q maybe that's more of an issue. But I guess, you thinking of yield expansion from here on out for the rest of the year?

Aaron Diefenthaler
Aaron Diefenthaler
Chief Investment Officer & Treasurer at RLI

Andrew, this is Aaron. We're always trying to be as accretive as we possibly can be cognizant of the risk profile of the asset side of the balance sheet. And if you go back to the fourth quarter, we didn't return a fair amount of capital to shareholders in the form of our special dividend. So maybe that was a little bit of a headwind rolling into the new year. We still are finding very adequate, high quality opportunities to fix things, as Todd mentioned, to put money to work above our book yield a fair amount above our book yield, frankly, and we feel pretty pretty good about that.

Aaron Diefenthaler
Aaron Diefenthaler
Chief Investment Officer & Treasurer at RLI

But changing the makeup of the portfolio in terms of overall credit risk or duration is probably not a near term change that we're confident.

Andrew Andersen
Andrew Andersen
Equity Research Vice President at Jefferies Financial Group

You.

Operator

There are no further questions. I will now turn the conference over to Mr. Craig Lee Thermos for some closing remarks.

Craig Kliethermes
Craig Kliethermes
President and CEO at RLI

Well, you all for joining today and we appreciate all questions and your interest in our company. A solid quarter to begin our sixty first year. Our uncommon underwriting discipline and diversified portfolio of specialty products has translated into consistent financial outcomes over time and allows us to serve as a stable and consistent market for our customers. I would like to thank all of our ROI associate owners for their contributions to our shared success and encourage them to keep being different because being different works. Thank you all again for participating today, and we'll visit again next quarter.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to access the replay for this call, you may do so on the RLI homepage at www.rlicorp.com. This concludes our conference for today. Thank you all for participating, have a nice day. All parties may now disconnect.

Executives
    • Aaron Diefenthaler
      Aaron Diefenthaler
      Chief Investment Officer & Treasurer
    • Craig Kliethermes
      Craig Kliethermes
      President and CEO
    • Todd Bryant
      Todd Bryant
      CFO
    • Jen Klobnak
      Jen Klobnak
      COO
Analysts
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