Cleveland-Cliffs Q4 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

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Provided by Quartr
January 30, 2024

Key Takeaways

  • Cleveland Cliffs’ $60+ per share all-cash-and-stock offer for U.S. Steel with over $750 M in cost synergies was rejected in favor of a proposed sale to Nippon, a transaction the company views as facing significant regulatory and union hurdles.
  • The company generated over $1.6 B of free cash flow in 2023, reduced net debt by $1.3 B to $2.9 B (below its $3 B target), and plans to allocate capital flexibly with share buybacks as the top priority.
  • Operationally, Cliffs delivered record shipments of 16.4 M tons, achieved $1.9 B in adjusted EBITDA and reported that Q4’s $279 M quarterly adjusted EBITDA represents a trough going forward.
  • Cliffs reduced costs by $80 per ton in 2023 and expects an additional $30 per ton of cost savings in 2024—equivalent to roughly $500 M of incremental EBITDA—through supply agreements, inventory management and lower energy hedges.
  • The company is pioneering its “Cliffs H” environmental surcharge and conducting hydrogen injection trials at its Indiana Harbor 7 blast furnace, positioning it to monetize CO₂ reductions and advance toward green steel production.
AI Generated. May Contain Errors.
Earnings Conference Call
Cleveland-Cliffs Q4 2023
00:00 / 00:00

There are 7 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Melissa, and I'm your conference I would like to welcome everyone to Cleveland Cliffs Full Year and Fourth Quarter 2023 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question and answer session. The company reminds you that certain comments made on today's call will include predictive statements that are intended to be made as forward looking within the Safe Harbor Protections of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.

Operator

Although the company believes that its forward looking statements are based on reasonable assumptions, such statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause results to differ materially. Important factors that could cause results to differ materially are set forth in reports on Forms 10 ks and 10 Q and news release is filed with the SEC, which are available on the company's website. Today's conference call is also available and being broadcast at clevelandcliffs.com. At the conclusion of the call, it will be archived on the website and available for replay. The company will also discuss results excluding certain special items.

Operator

Reconciliation for Regulation G purposes can be found In the earnings release, which was published yesterday. At this time, I would like to introduce Celso Gonsalves, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer.

Speaker 1

Good morning, everyone. Before discussing our 2023 results, I'm going to start this call by briefly addressing our recent involvement in the U. S. Steel sale process, And then I'll clarify our M and A strategy and capital allocation priorities going forward.

Speaker 2

Just so everyone's on

Speaker 1

the same page, Cleveland Cliffs is referenced as Company D as in Delta in the proxy statement filed by U. S. Steel last week. On December 18, 2023, U. S.

Speaker 1

Steel announced its intention to sell the entire company to Nippon Steel of Japan and indicated their expectation to close the transaction by Q2 or Q3 of 2024, following a brief customary regulatory review process that was characterized by the U. S. Steel CEO as having, quote, a low level of risk. As we all know by now, these were just a few of many severe misjudgments made by the U. S.

Speaker 1

Steel Board, their management team, their lawyers at Milbank and Wachtell and their financial advisors at Barclays and Goldman Sachs. A deal is only a done deal when it closes. Recent reports make it clear that their announced transaction with Nippon faces a very uncertain path to close. So their saga is not over. Cleveland Cliffs is the only company with recent experience in successfully closing acquisitions involving USW represented iron and steelmaking assets.

Speaker 1

We did it twice in 2020 when we bought AK Steel and AM USA, one of which was a whole company transaction the other of which was an acquisition of certain USW represented assets. M and A deals involving unionized labor forces are a completely different animal than cookie cutter sale processes. Labor agreements are not black and white and practical implications of upsetting the unions are hard to predict. Our acquisition track record proves that we act opportunistically on deals. We execute and close value accretive transactions that benefit all stakeholders involved.

Speaker 1

The final proposal from Cliffs to acquire US Steel included $27 in cash, dollars 27 in CLF stock and over $6 in synergy value to U. S. Steel stockholders, combining for a total value of over $60 per share. The industrial logic of Aclif's U. S.

Speaker 1

Steel Combination goes without saying, and that's the main reason we were willing to offer this value for the acquisition. There's no other buyer that can deliver $750,000,000 in cost synergies. Our offer provided the best value and future upside for investors in the combined company. Our final proposal also included adequate remedies to mitigate antitrust regulatory risk and preserve a competitive market environment. Cleveland Cliffs offered a clear path to close the transaction.

Speaker 1

But rather than working towards a deal with Cliffs, U. S. Steel chose to announce a proposed sale of the company to a foreign buyer with serious conflicts of interest for America, no support or even awareness from the union and for a lower overall value. US Steel clearly overestimated the regulatory antitrust risk with Cliffs, completely ignored the union and miscalculated the political risk with Nippon, given the negative implications to our supply chains and national security. So given all of this, what is Cleveland plus planning to do about M and A and capital allocation going forward?

Speaker 2

We're going to do exactly what we always do.

Speaker 1

We're going to continue to be opportunistic on M and A. We're going to be buying back shares and we're going to be paying down debt. In 2023, we generated more than $1,600,000,000 in free cash flow, nearly $500,000,000 of which came in the 4th quarter alone. We actually generated more cash in 2023 than we did in 2022 when our adjusted EBITDA was higher. We used most of this free cash flow to pay down debt last year, bringing our net debt down by $1,300,000,000 year over year to only $2,900,000,000 as of the end of 2023, below our stated target of $3,000,000,000 We have a balance sheet that can withstand volatility in the steel market, giving us flexibility to toggle capital allocation priorities as needed based on the opportunities in front of us.

Speaker 1

For now, we plan to be even more aggressive with share buybacks, given the discount presented in our stock. We still have over $600,000,000 remaining in our existing share repurchase program. And depending on market and other conditions, We plan to deploy the remainder of this dry powder during open windows. And by the way, as of today, we have no MMPI and we are free to trade and buy our stock as soon as

Speaker 2

the window opens tomorrow. With that said,

Speaker 1

we will also continue to reduce our net debt. Over the past 2 years, we have allocated roughly 85 percent of our free cash flow to debt repayment. During this period, Debt reduction was our number one capital allocation priority, with share buybacks and M and A opportunities explored opportunistically. Going forward, share buybacks are now the number one priority. We have already paid off the entire balance of our ABL.

Speaker 1

This is a notable accomplishment that has brought our current liquidity above $4,500,000,000 the highest level in our company's history. Our debt reduction will now be executed primarily via open market bond repurchases and redemptions. From an operational standpoint, 2023 was another blockbuster year for Cleveland Cliffs. We delivered record shipments, both in total and specifically to the automotive industry. We reduced costs by $80 per ton in 2023 and generated $1,900,000,000 in adjusted EBITDA.

Speaker 1

With the successful negotiation of our coal and alloy supply agreements, The purging of higher cost inventory in 2023, lower natural gas hedges and continued healthy operating rates, We expect to achieve another $30 per ton in cost reductions in 2024, equating to roughly $500,000,000 in EBITDA increase just from these cost reductions. In the Q4 of In the Q4 of 2023, we generated adjusted EBITDA of $279,000,000 which we believe is a trough in quarterly adjusted EBITDA going forward. We reported our 4th consecutive quarter of shipments above 4,000,000 tons compared to 2022 in which all four quarters were below this level. We generated $487,000,000 of free cash flow, affirming our prior commentary that working capital would be a meaningful source of cash for us in Q4. From an EPS standpoint, it's important to note that we reported both GAAP and adjusted EPS for Q4.

Speaker 1

The adjusted EPS backs out a small one time non cash goodwill impairment related to our non core tooling and stamping business, previously known as Precision Partners, which was a small company that AK Steel had bought before we acquired them in 2020. Based on revised capital priorities and higher discount rates, we decided to write off the goodwill value related to those non core assets as we had foreshadowed in our 10 ks. Our capital expenditures in 2024 should remain at similar levels as 2023, with an expected outflow of $675,000,000 $725,000,000 for the full year. I would note that this is by far the lowest amongst our peers with our equipment in very good shape and no plans to add any capacity. Our DD and A projection for 2024 is about $950,000,000 a decline from 2023.

Speaker 1

Our SG and A expense should be around $550,000,000 also a small decline from 2023. Furthermore, our automotive and other fixed contract pricing should remain in the same ballpark as 2023, which should actually promote some margin expansion due to our lower costs. Finally, you should note that we have uploaded an earnings presentation to our website for the benefit of our investors. While we don't plan to go through the slides during this call, We believe that you will find the materials to be a helpful reference to our financial highlights. Going forward, we plan to update this presentation each quarter for your convenience.

Speaker 1

With that, I will turn it over to Lorenzo.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Soso, and we welcome everyone to this call today. We are very pleased with what we were able to accomplish in 2023. Our total shipments of 16,400,000 tons clearly demonstrated what our operations are now capable of. For reference, In 2021, which was our 1st full year under the current configuration, even with demand off the charts For basically the entire year, we only did 15,900,000 tons of shipments. And that was with one more blast furnace operating than we have right now.

Speaker 2

I'm also proud of the successful implementation of the Cliffs H, surcharge, which applies to the steel produced through the BF, BOF route Using HBI as feedstock in the blast furnaces, this is actually the only true green is still premium that exists in the marketplace. With Klipsch, We were able to implement a tangible way for us to be monetarily recognized for the real environmental gains and CO2 emissions reduction we have achieved over the last several years. With this success, We are pleased that we are able to hold our automotive pricing roughly steady into 2024 despite low priced competition in the marketplace. Going forward, we expect a lot of progress over the next decade With emphasis on hydrogen, we have deployed $10,000,000 to build a hydrogen pipeline on-site in preparation for the hydrogen hub to be built in Indiana with funding from the Department of Energy Hydrogen Initiative. The pipeline is ready.

Speaker 2

And late last week, we initiated our 2nd blast furnace hydrogen injection trial. On Friday 26, we inject H2 gas for over an hour into the 2 years At our Indiana Harbor 7 blast furnace, the largest blast furnace in the Western Hemisphere with great success, The trial resumed yesterday when we injected hydrogen at Indiana Harbor 7 for most of the day. The trial continues today. We are very excited with the positive results We have got so far on production, process control, quality of hot metal and CO2 emissions. From the neurological standpoint, hydrogen as a blast furnace reductant works very well.

Speaker 2

Hydrogen is the real game changing event in iron making and steel making. And that's our Cleveland Cliffs pathway for the production of green steel. We appreciate the partnership Cleveland Cliffs has with the Department of Energy as well as with several other cabinet level offices. Due to the efforts of the Biden administration, and it's very important to emphasize that bipartisan support in Congress, The United States is closer than anyone else to becoming the 1st country in the world to have abundant and competitively priced Green hydrogen available to support a true green industrial revolution. We are also grateful For our partnership with our gas supplier Linde in these efforts, Linde remains as committed to this technology as we are.

Speaker 2

Speaking of technology, American Ironmaking and Steelmaking Technology is superior when compared to foreign steelmakers. Casing point, the CO2 emissions intensity of Cliffs Blast Furnaces, SDOFs are 25% to 40% better than the emissions associated to steel produced through similar equipment in Japan, Korea, China or Europe. Said another way, none of the top 10 steel makers in the world have better CO2 emissions profile than Cleveland Cliffs. None. We have better than each one of them by a large margin.

Speaker 2

Our numbers are better because our technology is far ahead. Their so called The carbonization strategies are things we have been doing at Cliffs for a long time and have perfected. The use of our ore pellets, natural gas utilization as reduction, HPI used as feedstock in blast furnaces and now hydrogen injection. In the United States, the Cliffs brand is synonymous with technology innovation and quality steel. We are the benchmark and the OEMs recognize that.

Speaker 2

Our technology got us our reputation and we will continue to be on the cutting edge to ensure that this technological advantage stays with us. As for the broader market, we are of course Pleased to see that each of our price increases announced over the last several months was successfully implemented after the market once again lost touch with reality in the August September 2023 timeframe. The underlying basis to nearly all our strategic moves over the past decade has been the ongoing and inevitable increase in the tightness of Ferro's scrap metal in the United States, particularly prime scrap. In 2023, the bushland scrap price averaged $4.90 per gross ton, a number about $100 higher than the prior decade average. After owning our scrap company FPT for more than 2 years, it's now very clear to us that scrap is very valuable, particularly here in the United States.

Speaker 2

Keep in mind, the steel market in the United States is different from the rest of the entire world. Here, more than 70 percent of steel production uses EAFs and therefore a lot of scrap. Since we acquired FPT in November of 2021, we have been working to allow for the natural forces of supply and demand to prevail instead of settling for the power of an industry dominated by A couple mega buyers of scrap. A lot of the so called cyclicality of these 2 businesses in North America is self inflicted and caused by the strange ways the scrap is transacted. Once this serious issue is finally resolved, Artificial seasonality will be eliminated and HRC price can be stable for extended periods of time.

Speaker 2

Finally, as it's now public, we were prepared to deliver $60.50 per share of value For U. S. Steel, well in excess of any other bidder and with a cash and stock structure that their major stockholders told us they prefer over an all cash offer. Keep in mind, Their major stockholders, they are Delaware Company, are also our major shareholders. We are an Ohio company And we speak with them very frequently.

Speaker 2

Unfortunately, we could not deliver the superior value to the West Steel stockholders because the West Steel Board stood in the way and was helping to sell to a foreign entity. And despite what is written in their proxy statement, based on our analysis of the antitrust risk, we were fully confident in our strategy to clear any regulatory risks. We are truly disappointed for the U. S. Steel employees, particularly the unionized workforce.

Speaker 2

There is only one reason the USW exclusively backed Cleveland Cliffs and assigned to us their right to bid. It's our proven commitment to not just preserve, but to grow good American manufacturing jobs, good American middle class jobs and maintain American ownership of industries critical to our national security and to our supply chains. Fortunately for the workforce, we do not believe that the final chapter of this story has been written. It's now evident that the U. S.

Speaker 2

Steel Board of Directors made 2 severe miscalculations. They overrated the potential antitrust regulatory risk related to CLIFS. And they completely under appreciated the risks related to the CFIUS review and the USW Union Contractual Rights. We applaud the Biden administration for raising alarm bells on this proposed transaction. Along with influential elected officials at the Senate and at the House of Representatives on both sides of the aisle, The Biden administration has been very clearly expressing their views.

Speaker 2

We believe they rightfully see This transaction with Nippon has proposed being bad for America and bad for American workers. As we all know, it's hard to point out a single subject that can unify the positions and opinions of Democrats and Republicans. At this moment in time, it would be seen as a miracle. Well, the unfortunate error made by the West Steel Board of Directors was able to promote this miracle. That's why we believe that the mistake will be fixed hopefully earlier rather than later.

Speaker 2

From our part, we will continue to fight for our industry, for our company, our shareholders and for the American workers. With that, I will turn it over to Melissa for Q and A.

Operator

Thank you. At this time, we will be conducting a question and answer session. Our first question comes from the line of Lucas Pipes with B. Riley Securities. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 3

Thank you so much, operator. Good morning, everyone. Lorenza, to go back to your U. S. Steel Comments just a moment ago.

Speaker 3

I wanted to ask what gives you or gave you the confidence in the synergies while also potentially having to meet divestiture requirements to clear antitrust. We'd really appreciate your perspective. Thank you.

Speaker 2

We had a package good morning, Lucas. We had a package to be there that we our Authorities at Dave's book were discussing with the attorneys at New Bank that we believe would be more than sufficient to clear all regulatory hurdles and that included the commitment to sell pellets to others, the commitment to sales labs to others, other commitments on supply agreements. And we would go all the way to some divestitures up to a level of $2,000,000,000 in revenues. That should do it Based on our homework done with Our knowledge of how the DOJ works, the antitrust division of the DOJ works and our deep experience led by our challenge of Dave Spoke. Unfortunately, we never had Our willing partner even though we are discussing in terms of working together, we never had a willing partner with Milbank.

Speaker 2

And by the way, for the record, The $7,000,000,000 hurdle in revenues was never revealed to us. It was an internal discussion of U. S. Just an internal discussion. It was never discussed even discussed with us.

Speaker 2

So if they had brought that to the conversation, we would easily turn it down. So we are very, very confident on what we have done and all the homework we did. We don't get the support we had from the administration, from political Eminent deep and political figures on the left, on the right, on the center. And you know the names and if I need to Say the names to clarify, I'll be more than happy to do it. And that was totally ignored.

Speaker 2

So you have absolutely you have it what So, and at this point, we'll see. Stay put.

Speaker 3

I appreciate the color.

Speaker 2

I forgot to talk about Yes, you know how we operate with synergies. We usually we Under promise and over deliver, that is what happened with the AK Steel. That's what happened when we acquired ArcelorMittal USA. So, we at this point, we do still would be more of the same, just in our bigger scale. So that would come from purchasing, that would come from services background, healthcare, renegotiations, all kinds of good stuff in terms of having a bigger footprint And a lot more ability to negotiate out of a much more broad type of footprint.

Speaker 2

And very importantly, our synergies were not anticipating that would shut down any facility and would not be letting go any single union employee, any single worker at the plants of was still 4 cliff and cliffs for that matter. So that would not be cutting jobs. So I'll leave it at that, but we were we had a robust proposal and they elected to go in a Different direction. Good luck. Like I said on December 2018, good luck on closing.

Speaker 3

Thank you. Thank you, Lorenzo. I appreciate that color. In the meantime, many Companies in the sector with strong cash flow have moved towards kind of a formulaic approach to capital returns, Allocating a percentage of available free cash flow to buybacks, for example. You mentioned earlier kind of buybacks, debt reduction and opportunistic M and A as kind of three areas of capital allocation, but I wondered if you Would be prepared to move towards a percentage, for example, towards buybacks.

Speaker 3

Would appreciate your color on this. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Luca, I will let Celso answer that one. Go ahead.

Speaker 1

Yes. Hey, Lucas. So as I stated, we've in the prior quarters, We've allocated about 85% of free cash flow to debt reduction. What we're going to do going forward is we're going to be flexible. We're going to be a lot more aggressive with share buybacks.

Speaker 1

Well, you can sort of estimate that it

Speaker 2

will be sort of fifty-fifty

Speaker 1

buybacks and debt reduction. And the reason that we're not putting in place a dividend at this point, for example, is because we want to remain flexible. There are a lot of M and A opportunities available, including the one that was announced in December. We don't think that story is over yet. So I think staying with this fifty-fifty split, It gives us enough flexibility to toggle the priorities and be able to move quickly if opportunities present themselves.

Speaker 3

That's very helpful. I really appreciate the color and to you and the team at Calypso. Continue best of luck.

Speaker 2

Thanks a lot, Lucas. Thank you. Thank

Operator

you. Our next question comes from the line of Timna Tanners with Wolfe Research. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 4

Thank you. Good morning. I wanted to just clarify if I could some of the 2024 EBITDA color or sorry, the guidance that you gave, how we can use that to arrive at forecast. So you're talking about a little stronger volumes and I think $30 per ton of lower costs on a net basis. And then on the pricing side, obviously we could use the futures, we could have our own I was hoping for a little bit more color on the comment about why you think prices shouldn't go below 1,000 given the futures market well below that.

Speaker 4

Just a little more color on making sure I have those numbers right on the future on the outlook and also your thoughts on my comment on the $1,000

Speaker 2

Good morning, Timna. Let me start with the futures. The futures are friction Because it's done by tasks that guys that if I show them a hot rolled coil, cold rolled coil, galvanized coil, Normal stable, they still cannot differentiate 1 from the other, and you know that. So, they can go up and down $200, $2.50 per ton in a day. And they do that with absolutely no consequences.

Speaker 2

So that's my opinion on futures. You basically you can use that thing to as toilet paper. It's useless. That's the future because we have a few producers of hot rolled in the country. We view every day with the thing and we buy, we sell, we transact, we produce and we know a lot more About the future, there are the futures.

Speaker 2

So reset yourself, Tina. Unplug yourself from the wall, plug again, so we're going to be okay with pricing going forward. And then we're not going to be talking about stoma gales and things like that. As far as the EBITDA guidance, dollars 30 Per ton is basically the $500,000,000 of EBITDA that we are talking about. If you multiply 30 By 16,500,000 tons of shipments, you got to 495.

Speaker 2

So, I'm rounding up to 500. That's the number.

Speaker 4

Got it. Okay. That's helpful. Yes, the futures market is tiny. I get it.

Speaker 4

It's just something people look at. So I just wanted to ask about that. Just to clarify

Speaker 2

on the last People like me need to talk like I talk to make sure that the people that look stop looking. Because if they stop looking, it's a good, good, good start. And if people like you help, Life would be a lot easier because you are knowledgeable. You know that that thing sucks. You know that that thing is useless.

Speaker 2

You know that that thing is just a thing for people to sell the newsletters every day. It's absolute use of it. There's a lot of wells being destroyed by the use of these things. It's about time for us As a business community to understand that it's fair to make money, but let's make money doing things that are constructive. And that thing is destructive, it's not constructive.

Speaker 2

I'm sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead please, Timna.

Speaker 4

No, that's okay. I'll leave it there, Alainzo. Thanks again.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Don't forget about the resetting thing in Sears.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Tristan Graser with BNP Paribas, Exane. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 5

Yes. Hi, good morning and thank you for taking my questions. The first question is on the scrap market. In your prepared remarks, you mentioned some artificial moves in the scrap market and probably refer to the January settlement. So I would be keen to have your view on what you think happened and what do you think need to happen in the market To be what you call fair?

Speaker 5

That's my first question. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Good morning, Tristan. Yes, you already answered your wrong question. Yes, that's the January thing In a market that is clearly under supplied with prime scrap. Why is on supply of contract? Let's see.

Speaker 2

Manufacturing in the United States is until The initiatives that are happening in the last few years, the Aira, the infrastructure bill and etcetera, All these things that are going on right now and they will bear fruit in the future, manufacturing is shrinking. With manufacturing shrinking, the generation of prime scrap is shrinking. At the same time, The mini mills continue to build capacity and capacity to produce flat rolled steel with its prime scraps. There's no other way to get there, particularly with mini mills that don't own iron ore assets. So they can't use enough of metallics, enough of substitutions, so they have to use prime scrap.

Speaker 2

So the prime scrap is shrinking Because manufacturing is shrinking and has not started to grow just yet. And the demand for scrap is increasing, what's the trend of the price? It's up. So, we can't have a drop like the one that was attempted to happen in January because it was just a head fake. The final numbers were not the initial numbers.

Speaker 2

The initial numbers were one trade and one trade that only happens here in Ohio and we have already identified how the trade goes. So, what's the solution? Just let supply and demand work because if supply and demand doesn't work As this thing continues to happen time and time again, this is a country of loss. You cannot collude To mix prices go in the direction you want, you're going to have real competition. You're going to have the forces of supply and demand prevail Because that's what the letter of the law will support.

Speaker 2

I hope you understand

Speaker 1

my point.

Speaker 5

Yes, that's very clear. Thank you. And my second question is on the surcharge or the premium. I You mentioned the successful implementation of the surcharge in the contracts. So what is the volume involved for those premiums?

Speaker 5

And what is it corresponding in terms of carbon intensity? I think you previously mentioned a $40 premium, and I believe you will move further down in carbon intensity for your BF, BUF. So do you believe this premium could increase with time or it should be relatively stable in 2024? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Yes. In 2024, it will be stable. And that's the number. The surcharge called Cliff Sage, it's applied to all of our automotive clients at this point. And some of the clients outside of Autopuris that have the need and the desire to get Still that is environmentally compliant.

Speaker 2

It's easy for them to not only pay for, but also to pass along, which they haven't started yet. But should be for a car, for example, assuming that our car has 1 ton of steel, it would be $40 per car. So it will not be significant in a big scheme of cash. So all of our automotive contracts With multiple millions of tons, I'd call 5,000,000 tons, a significant number. So it's not irrelevant.

Speaker 2

That's why we're spending time discussing in this call. The next step will be when we have green hydrogen available, which we don't have today, Our trials with hydrogen are being done with what we have, gray hydrogen. And gray hydrogen is Good enough for us to make sure that metallurgically inside the blast furnace, the hydrogen works as a reductant and that's what we're proving right now. Are proving to ourselves that we are on the right track. We are very excited that we are on the technological right track.

Speaker 2

But what we are aiming have is green hydrogen. And when we have green hydrogen available, we're going to be at the Cliff's H Max level. In the meantime, any hydrogen, green, gray, pink, whatever we can get our hands around that we can use to enrich Natural gas, we are going to start using and when we get to a level that we can consider that we are really reducing emissions due to the use of any type of hydrogen that is a positive for CO2 emission. And we can prove the numbers To the world, in our sustainability reports, we are going to go to the Cliffs H2 true surcharge that would be higher than Cliff 6. So in summary, Cliff 6 now is $40 per ton.

Speaker 2

When we have hydrogen available enough to use Hydrogen to enrich natural gas, we're going to go to place H2. And when you get to green hydrogen, which we expect we fully expect it To be in the next several years, but before 2030, we're going to be at the Cliff's HVAC. But that's the route we are going. But we are doing this to get paid, not to brag about like 99.9% of the CEOs that talk about environmental, they have they just want this thing to go away one day and they don't need to talk about anymore, but they don't even know what they're talking.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Bill Peterson with JPMorgan. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 6

Yes. Hi. Good morning and thanks for taking our questions. First question, I wanted to kind of come back to the fundamentals and your outlook. So if you think the current view of the steel market, as you see it, given that it looks like pricing may have already peaked this year compared to last is a little bit later in the year, maybe March, April.

Speaker 6

And then if you could touch on the customer inventory you're seeing relative strength And the value added steel products over HRC, and that's specific for you as we think about the Q1. How should we think about the product mix given the step down in coated volumes during the Q4?

Speaker 2

Yes. Look, good morning, Bill. Look, first of all, we are seeing Q1 that is pretty stable in comparison with what we were seeing last year. Remember last year everybody was Expecting the hard landing, expecting the Armageddon, the catastrophe and Inflation will take over, the world will come to an end and all of a sudden everything was great. Everything was okay and We were fine in terms of soft landing.

Speaker 2

The other thing that influenced last year was not even the strike That the U. S. Dollar called on the big three in Detroit, the big three common factors in Detroit, Because that was actually a good thing for us as a supplier, a major supplier of AltoBore to the point that the common factors were building inventories in anticipation of the strike and then when the strike was not As bad or as long as they were anticipating, they continue to buy. So, we're very mildly affected only at the very tailwind of the strike when the strike was in the last days. But the biggest impact of the UAW strike was The behavior of the IDA buyers, particularly the middlemen, particularly the service centers and distributors That in anticipation of a disaster that they were expecting On demand and prices, they stop the buying.

Speaker 2

And then when an entire sector goes black The entire sector does not buy any more price goes down and that's what happened last year. We are not anticipating, Bill, at this point that nothing like that will happen this year. So we are expecting at the end of the day a much more stable, much more normal year in 2024. And that's why we are Basically, anticipating a flat year in terms of shipment, 16,400,000 tons last year, 16,500,000 tons This year, no change in mix.

Speaker 6

Yes. And this for the Q1, how should we think about mix, your own mix?

Speaker 2

I'm sorry, Phil, can you say one thing?

Speaker 6

Yes, just the second part of my question was how to think about the product mix for your business into the Q1 given the step down in coated volumes in the last quarter.

Speaker 2

Yes, go ahead, Soso.

Speaker 1

Yes. Hey, Bill, it's Soso. Some general talking points on the Q1. In terms of mix, You should see a similar mix in Q1 relative to Q4. From a shipment standpoint, Q1 should be a slight increase from Q4.

Speaker 1

And then from an average selling price standpoint, you could probably plug Around $60 a ton increase as we start to see benefit from lags on index pricing and things like that. And then in terms of costs, we're going to have a big benefit from lower raw materials and coal, but that's not going to hit until Q2. So those are kind of the general estimates for Q1 that you can think about.

Speaker 6

That's helpful color. And for my second question, look, I realize your views on the NSE U. S. Deal is clear, but should the deal go through realize the current plan is to return capital to shareholders as well as debt pay down. But would you see the need to bolster your footprint or Your technical capabilities in order to compete moving forward?

Speaker 6

And if so, I guess, what kind of assets would Cliffs maybe look to acquire, Anything downstream for the electric steel, something else?

Speaker 2

Look, we don't see the need to do anything. We believe that we have a fantastic footprint. We have a fantastic position in terms of our feedstock and Our ability to control our own destiny. So, we don't see the need to do anything, but we continue to see opportunities. Technologically, we are ahead.

Speaker 2

In terms of quality, we are ahead. But don't forget, we built a steel company In 3 years, we did and we paid the debt down to a point that nobody would anticipate. It's like buy a big house, put a big mortgage, 30 years, and everybody will be happy to keep paying every month for 30 years. And then in 3 years, you're done. You paid off the market.

Speaker 2

That's what we did here. And investors need to recognize that. When we see a target that is completely underappreciated like we are still, we are still trading on the base on the cash on hand. Everybody, someone else was believing that they could do a better job than that management team that is squattering there. And I agree with them.

Speaker 2

That's why I made an offer to bring them to the role of companies That trade based on some type of fundamentals and not just on cash on hand. And that my first offer was a good one. But then things got crazy because that board did not want to sell to Cliffs, period, full stop. They would like to bring the back of the union. That's what they are doing.

Speaker 2

Let's talk turkey here. That management team and that board has one goal in mind And the goal was to break the bag of the United Steelworkers. And by breaking the bag of the United Still workers to break the back of unionized labor in America. I am a big supporter of unionized labor Because it goes against bosses like this bird. These type of people need to go.

Speaker 2

So that's my take on U. S. Steel. Do I need to give you more color or that's enough? No, no, that's good.

Speaker 6

And it's clear that you have what you need to compete. So I appreciate The insights here and good luck in 2024 and the execution ahead.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Alex Hacking with Citi. Please proceed with your question.

Speaker 1

Yes, morning, Lorenzo Seltzer. I just have one question. On the $30 a ton cost guidance, What volume do you realistically need to achieve that, right? You're guiding to 16,500,000 tons. Could you achieve that level of cost reduction at 16,000,000 tons?

Speaker 1

Any color there on that relationship would be helpful. Thank you. Yes, I mean that's what we're assuming Alex. We're like we said, we're at 16.4% last year, we're going to be at 16.5% this year. That's what we need to continue to lower our costs.

Speaker 1

We've done a lot of cost reduction over the last few quarters, But there's still a little bit more to go. And that's what we're sticking with. We're confident in achieving that cost reduction during the whole year. It's not necessarily going to come next quarter, but it's going to you're going to see that throughout the year given the volume assumptions that we have. Okay.

Speaker 1

Just but if volume, let's say, was 16,000,000 tons instead, would you be able to achieve any per ton cost productions or you would see costs more flattish in that kind of scenario? Yes. So with lower volume, there are things that we could toggle. We'd probably have less maintenance expense and things like that. So that would offset the volume impact.

Speaker 1

Okay, thanks. Appreciate it. No problem. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is a follow-up from the line of Lucas Pipes with B. Riley Securities.

Speaker 3

I wanted to ask first on the fixed pricing and how that was shaping up for the January contracts kind of on a year on year basis? Then also if you could share any expectation for the April tranche? Thank you very much.

Speaker 2

The last price increase we are transacting at the level that we announced in some cases. And the overall market is still below. So, it's a mixed bag. So, we always try one more until we realize that the market has reached a point that we are not going to be able to push anymore. We like higher prices.

Speaker 2

That's the best thing for Our company is the best thing for our employees, the best thing for our shareholders. So that's why we push prices up. We go until we can't go no more. On the other hand, we don't see any reason for price to be HRC price to be below 1,000 in this marketplace at this very point. With all the fundamentals being you go around and around and around and come back to one thing, scrap.

Speaker 2

So I know I have already discussed scrap enough. So $1,000 per ton is a good floor and I would say that at this point the $11.50 is my talk. So that's the range that I expect price to transact as far as HRC going forward. As far as the automotive block That goes in April. The biggest client on that block is Toyota.

Speaker 2

Toyota is an April 1 for us. And we have a great relationship with Toyota. They are our largest client in Alberta at this point by a decent margin against the other that we used to be called Big 3. They are still big, but Toyota is bigger. And the good thing about Toyota, we continue to develop highly sophisticated specs With Toyota, particularly at this point in no oriented electrical stews because we really produce no oriented electrical stews, We don't just say that we are producing an oriented electrical steel and we never sued Toyota like Nippon Steel just did in Japan.

Speaker 2

Nifo still sued Toyota for to get a price increase. We're getting price increase without suing our clients. So if that's the technology that they would like to bring to the United States, we don't need that technology. We know how relationships work.

Speaker 3

Thank you very much. And in light of the strong volume guidance, what's a good ratio to use for kind of fixed pricing versus more spot exposed? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Fifty-fifty is a good number. We are probably in the 45, 55, so we're close to the 55th, I don't know if Selsu has any more color on that.

Speaker 1

No, I think that, yes, that's a good way to think about it.

Speaker 3

Thank you. And then

Speaker 2

going back to

Speaker 3

the market dynamics, I appreciate the points on the scrap side. When I do the math on Imported steel into the U. S, I arrive at a kind of landed price of 11.50 which is obviously higher than where U. S. HRC is quoted by the major publishing houses.

Speaker 3

How do you square that or how would you frame up the competition from imports today? Thank you.

Speaker 2

I'm sorry, I'm not sure if I understood your question, Lucas.

Speaker 3

When I do the math, I arrive at a Import price, so if someone were to buy steel from abroad today, it's at a price That's higher than where I see the U. S. HRC price. And that on the surface Makes little sense given the import requirement given that the U. S.

Speaker 3

Is still short steel. So I wondered if you have a view on that and where imports currently kind of factor into the price discovery?

Speaker 2

Yes, the biggest thing when we were talking about is still coming from abroad is that first of all, It's still coming from abroad, it's by and large, it's still coming from blast furnace BOF integrated type of mills. The mini mill tank only exists in volume and in importance in the United States. So When you talk about big producers of steel that are able to export competitors from China or Korea or Japan For Europe, they are super influenced by the price of iron ore. So the old Dyodex that we used to discuss a lot in this course a few years ago is now above $130 I remember one of my last calls when iron ore was still important. For us, I said, I would actually trade no lower than $130,000,000 something like that.

Speaker 2

Bingo, That's exactly several years later, that's exactly where we are. So I'm making the same prediction for our product quality. And we continue to be very attentive to the trade laws of the United States and the enforcement of the trade laws of the United States because when things don't go the way I have just described, the reason is very simple, it's dumping. And the biggest problem of having foreign ownership in the United States is that you put You put the box to take care of the handouts. And then we're going to have a domestic player That we'll say now, I don't think that there's a problem here.

Speaker 2

And it's a domestic player. So we cannot allow that to happen Because that would be weakening the trade loss from the inside. If you can't enforce, Having the trade laws doesn't work. So that's one of the things why we are so protective in terms of our supply chain and our national security Because of course, it's not in the best interest of the country to give away control over the things, particularly steel production in times of war or pre war

Speaker 3

Lorenzo, I really appreciate the color. Again to you and your team, best of luck.

Speaker 2

Thank you, Lucas.

Operator

Thank you. That concludes our question and answer session. I'll turn the floor back to Mr. Gonzales for final comments.

Speaker 2

Thank you very much for participating in the call today. Great questions. We believe that the saga is not over, but for us, we are going to continue to play as we go. In the next 24 hours, the window for us will be open. And you make no mistake, my priority at this point is buying back my shares because shares are on sale.

Speaker 2

So and I like to buy things on sale. Thank you very much and have a great day.

Operator

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.

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