Timbercreek Financial Q4 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

Quartr
Provided by Quartr
February 27, 2024

There are 6 speakers on the call.

Operator

Good afternoon, everyone. Thanks for joining us to discuss the Q4 year end financial results. As usual, I'm joined by Scott Rowland, CIO Tracy Johnson, CFO and Jeff McTate, Head of Canadian Originations and Global Syndications. It was another solid quarter for the company, closing out a strong year financially. The 2023 financial highlights included record net investment income of 124,200,000 versus $109,800,000 last year, net income of $66,400,000 up from $55,900,000 last year and BI of $70,400,000 or $0.84 per share representing a healthy payout ratio of 81.9% on BI.

Operator

In addition to continuing our long track record of stable monthly dividends, the strong income performance enabled us to report a special dividend. These results underscore the strong underlying fundamentals of our portfolio and our ability to generate substantial income, earnings per share and sustainable dividends. As we highlighted over the past several earnings calls, these results were achieved while we navigated a challenging period of the real estate cycle caused by the rapid rise in interest rates and general economic weakness. These conditions placed strain on certain borrowers resulting in a higher balance in our Stage 2 and 3 loans. Advancing these situations towards repayment was a key focus in 2023 and through active management, we made material progress as Scott will expand on.

Operator

We continue to expect recovery of our invested capital and remain highly confident in the book value of the portfolio, which started $8.45 per share at year end, which is approximately 22% above the weighted average trading price over the past 3 months. Last year, we took a more cautious approach to underwriting and focused on delivering delevering, excuse me. Going forward, as the interest rate outlook stabilizes, we expect to see increased activity in the commercial real estate sector and higher transaction volume within our portfolio. As Scott will discuss, we believe that we are entering an advantageous period from a competitive perspective. We're in a very strong liquidity position to grow the portfolio back towards its historical size on a very attractive risk adjusted basis.

Operator

With that, I'll turn it over to Scott to discuss

Speaker 1

the portfolio trends and market conditions. Scott? Thanks, Blair, and good afternoon, everyone. I'll comment on the portfolio metrics, the progress with Stage 2 and Stage 3 loans and our view on the lending environment going forward. Looking at the portfolio of KPIs, at year end, 86% of our investments were in cash flowing properties compared with 86.5% at the end of Q3.

Speaker 1

Multi residential real estate assets, apartment buildings continue to comprise the largest portion of the portfolio at 56.5% at year end compared to 58.2% at the end of Q3. The portfolio remains conservatively invested. 1st mortgages represented 88.9% of the portfolio compared to 92.2% in Q3. Our weighted average loan to value for Q4 was 65.6%, down from the prior quarter which was 67% as new loans were funded at lower LTV, while loans with higher LTV were discharged in the 4th quarter. Portfolio's weighted average interest rate or where was 10%, up slightly from 9.9% in Q3 and from 9.7% in Q4 last year.

Speaker 1

The year over year increase is due to the impact of Central Bank rate hikes on our floating rate loans, which represented 86% of the portfolio at quarter end. Our Q4 exit wear was 10%, down slightly from 10.1 exiting Q3. The higher wear drove strong interest income from the portfolio. However, the higher debt costs have also placed strain on certain borrowers as we've discussed throughout 2023. Context, the prime rate in Canada reached 7.2% in July 'twenty three, a cumulative increase of 4.75% over 16 months from the first increase in March 'twenty two.

Speaker 1

This meant that real estate owners, many of which already face stress balance sheets coming out of COVID, now face the additional strain of much higher debt service payments. However, the outlook is improving and I'll come back to this theme in a moment. In terms of the new funding activity in the quarter, we invested $77,300,000 in new mortgage investments and additional advances on existing mortgages. Originations in the quarter were largely centered on low LTV multifamily assets. Total mortgage portfolio repayments were much higher in the quarter at $199,700,000 leading to a significant increase in portfolio turnover to 19.2% compared to 6% in Q3 'twenty three.

Speaker 1

As we anticipated, borrowers were able to execute on their exit plans either seek term financing or sales. The higher turnover is beneficial and that it increases the percentage of the portfolio invested at current valuation metrics and generates additional fee revenue as new loans are made and the portfolio grows back to its historical levels. We were intentionally cautious through much of 2023, adjusting the pace of new investments while still ensuring sufficient lending to maintain a healthy payout ratio. That said, we ended the year on a note of optimism and if the interest rates cycle has sort of stopped to increase and reach their peak, inflation levels were returning to normal. This sets the stage for rate cuts that are expected to begin as early as April or at some point during the latter part of 2024.

Speaker 1

As stability returns to the cost of debt, commercial real estate transaction volume should broadly rise and this is an attractive environment for Timber Creek to regrow the portfolio. Looking at asset allocation, there were no material changes from Q3 with respect to geographic concentration. The majority of the portfolio is tied to assets in urban markets in Ontario, BC, Quebec and Alberta. As Blair mentioned, we've made meaningfully progress on the Stage 2 and Stage 3 loans in the portfolio. So let me spend a few minutes on the status of these.

Speaker 1

I will remind you we have expanded disclosure in these loans in our MD and A as well. First, I am happy to announce that in January, we completed the sale of the portfolio of 7 multifamily stage 3 loans in Quebec. These were the largest of the stage loans representing a balance of 146,100,000 We were fully repaid all principal and accrued interest in January 'twenty four and the associated allowance for expected credit loss of 1,600,000 was fully reversed in Q4 2023. We've also made progress on the multifamily asset under construction that was part of the same CCAA process. The asset remained in Stage 3 at year end, however, a purchaser was selected through the bid process run by the monitor.

Speaker 1

The new purchaser will join the existing joint venture owner to complete the construction of the asset. The borrowers have executed a forbearance agreement, which includes the requirement for the borrowers to inject more equity into the project. We are on track for this to be a performing loan in Q1 2024, including being made current on interest arrears and we ultimately expect full repayment of this loan. The Stage 3 assets at quarter end also include $15,600,000 in condo inventory against an original inventory balance of $23,700,000 Our broker is actively working to sell the remaining condo assumption that interest rates will start to decline in 2024, we anticipate sales activity to increase this year. During Q4, we continue to advance the stage 3 medical office building in Ottawa, which represents $9,000,000 We engaged a new property manager last year to manage the leasing strategy.

Speaker 1

At the same time, we're exploring redevelopment potential with excess density and potentially targeting a sales process in 2024. Stage 3 assets also include 38,500,000 dollars net mortgage investments in 2 office properties and 1 retail property with the same sponsor in Calgary. Recall that these assets were in stage 2 last quarter. We continue to be in discussions with the sponsorship group to execute on a forbearance agreement along with potential plans for the near term sale of 1 of the assets. We expect to have a more fulsome update with our Q1 2024 financial results.

Speaker 1

While the Calgary office market has been challenging for many years, some positive absorption planned office conversions to multifamily and the high price of oil are all contributing to some optimism for the market. Upon execution of our forbearance, we anticipate this exposure will return to stage 2 and will likely stay there for the foreseeable future while we focus on leasing and optimizing the asset to realize full repayment. In terms of stage 2 assets, there are 2 loans to highlight. The first is an income producing office asset in Calgary with the same sponsor as previously mentioned. A forbearance agreement on this loan has been signed and additional structure has been implemented that will provide time to stabilize the asset.

Speaker 1

In addition, bullet repayments on the loan representing approximately 20% of exposure are slated to occur from non Calgary related asset sales in 2024 2025. The 2nd stage 2 entry relates to an income producing multifamily asset in Edmonton. The loan was extended in Q4 'twenty three for a 7 month period to enable the borrower to either sell the property or seek CMHC financing. We continue to expect full principal repayment on the loan. Lastly, I would highlight high quality senior living complex in real estate inventory.

Speaker 1

Our team has been working closely with the property manager and we've seen improvement in the asset including an increase in the cash yield. The plan is to continue to stabilize performance and seek a third party sale in due course. We do not expect principal losses on our ultimate disposition of this investment. In summary, while there is work to be done, our team has made great progress over the past several quarters on the Stage 2 and 3 loans, with full repayment on the largest of these loans already in 2024. We are confident both in the quality of the underlying assets and our ability to recover our investment through active management.

Speaker 1

We are experienced, aligned and highly focused on ensuring the best outcomes for our shareholders. I will now pass the call over to Tracy to review the financial results. Tracy?

Speaker 2

Thanks, Scott, and good afternoon, everyone. Blair commented on several of the full year highlights, so I'll focus on the main highlights of the Q4. As Blair mentioned, we reported healthy income levels throughout 2023. Q4 net investment income on financial assets measured in amortized costs was $29,700,000 compared with $31,300,000 in the prior year. We benefited from a higher wear year over year positively impacting the variable rate loans offset by a lower average balance in net mortgage investments.

Speaker 2

Fair value gain and other income on financial assets measured at fair value through profit and loss decreased modestly from a gain of $700,000 in Q4 2022 to a gain of $500,000 in Q4 2023. We reported a small amount in net rental income from real estate properties of $327,000 which is from the real estate properties inventory acquired in August via the credit bid process. Net rental income was partially offset by net rental loss from land inventory. Provisions for mortgage investment losses were $1,800,000 for Q4 2023, down from $2,800,000 in last year's Q4. The reduction is largely driven by the recovery of $1,600,000 in provisions from Stage 3 loans, which are now in Stage 1 and have subsequently been fully repaid with no losses.

Speaker 2

Offsetting this is an increase in Stage 2 and 3 loan loss provisions of $1,400,000 which include provisions for interest not yet earned. Lender fee income of $1,800,000 was consistent with Q4 2022. Q4 net income increased to $15,000,000 compared to $14,800,000 in Q4 last year. In Q4, basic and diluted earnings per share were $0.18 versus $0.18 and $0.17 respectively in the prior year. After adjusting for net unrealized fair value gains and losses on financial assets measured at fair value per cost and loss, Q4 adjusted net income was $14,700,000 the same as the prior year.

Speaker 2

We also reported solid quarterly distributable income and adjusted distributable income both for the Q4 and full year. Q4 DI was $17,500,000 or $0.21 per share versus $0.22 in last year's Q4. And in Q4, payout ratio on DI was very healthy at 82%. As Blair highlighted, full year DI was $70,400,000 or $0.84 per share, up from $66,200,000 or $0.79 per share last year, representing a payout ratio of 81.9 percent on distributable income. In light of the strong full year income results and in addition to paying 0.69 dollars per share in dividends through the year, we announced a special dividend of $0.575 per share for shareholders of record as at March 5, 2020 4.

Speaker 2

Turning now to the balance sheet highlights. The net value of the mortgage portfolio excluding syndications was 94 point $946,000,000 at the end of the year, a decrease of about $123,000,000 from the Q3 of this year. This decrease reflects the higher repayments in the period which we expected, the general slowdown in market transactions and the cautious approach to underwriting Scott referenced in his remarks. At year end, we had $92,600,000 of net real estate inventory, including land inventory of just over $30,600,000 and net real estate properties inventory of $62,000,000 which is the 3 senior living facilities acquired in August 2023 as Scott discussed earlier. We exchanged a mortgage investment of $64,400,000 for ownership of the underlying collateral.

Speaker 2

The gross asset of $131,000,000 is recognized in real estate properties inventory on the balance sheet with the corresponding liability for the syndicate's 50% share of the asset. You will find a detailed breakdown of this in note 5 of the financial statements. The enhanced return portfolio decreased by 10 point $3,000,000 to $62,700,000 from $72,900,000 at Q4 of 2020, mainly reflecting loan repayments. Balance on the credit facility for mortgage investments was $260,000,000 at the end of 2023, meaningfully lower than 405,000,000 dollars at the end of Q3 2023, reflecting the higher repayments in the quarter and we're cautious on the earning posture. We are pleased to have completed a renewal of our credit facility earlier this month, including a revolver of $510,000,000 and an accordion option of up $100,000,000 The credit facility gives us room to continue to deploy capital accretively as activity in the commercial real estate market accelerates.

Speaker 2

Shareholders' equity increased modestly to $701,000,000 at year end, up from $699,000,000 at year end 2022. The company's book value per share was $8.45 at year end before payment of the special dividend in March 2024 versus the book value per share of $8.33 at the end of 2022. As a normal course issuer bid program, we repurchased for cancellation 332,600 common shares this past quarter. For the full year, we acquired 878,000 shares at an average price of $7.09 We will continue to evaluate opportunities to use this program to acquire shares previously. I will now turn the call back to Scott for closing remarks.

Speaker 1

Thanks, Tracy. As you've heard, we were cautious throughout most of last year given the conditions in the market. We allowed our leverage to come down and the gross book to decrease while we work through several challenging loans given the environment. We made substantial progress on these stage loans and expect realization and or resolution on others during 2024. Our team continues to demonstrate the ability to effectively navigate these situations and unfortunately occur in the later stages of a cycle.

Speaker 1

And while high interest rates have caused some loan challenges, on the other hand, the broader portfolio has been resilient and we generated record net investment distributable income and earnings. In fact, we generated enough excess income in 2023 to pay a special dividend. We entered 2024 cautiously positive with the knowledge of cycle to end and conditions are favorable for improvement. With interest rate stability, we expect buyers and sellers to regain confidence in the market which should translate to higher transaction levels broadly and new opportunities for the Tipper Creek portfolio. As the market resets, we feel good about our competitive position and our ability to deploy capital to grow the portfolio in productive investments tied to high quality assets.

Speaker 1

As interest rates begin to come down, we continue to believe our monthly dividend will provide compelling risk adjusted return for our shareholders. With that, that completes our prepared remarks and we will now open the call to questions.

Speaker 2

The raise hand button on the bottom right screen below. Jaeme, your line is open. Please go ahead.

Speaker 3

Thank you. Can you hear me okay?

Speaker 4

Yes, we can. Thanks, Jim.

Speaker 3

Yes. So first question is just on the optimistic or I guess maybe more optimistic growth outlook. I kind of agree with where you're coming from on some of those bullet points, but just wondering how are you guys thinking about the, I guess, the trajectory of the portfolio? So if we look at the last year, it's been declining quarter over quarter. Some of these drivers like, let's say, lower interest rates may not be a factor until later this year.

Speaker 3

So perhaps the question is, do you anticipate seeing growth in the portfolio in the first half of the year or is this something that's a bit more delayed as some of these positive factors flow through over time?

Speaker 1

Yeah, thanks for the question. I think what we are seeing and I'll Jeff's here as well, so I'll certainly let him comment. But I'll just start with, I think 2023, Jamie, was a lot of uncertainty, right, because you've got buyers and sellers sort of looking at a bit of a staring contest at each other to see where the market was going to go, how high interest rates were going to lead and just sort of causes that mismatch between the buyer and the seller. And so you see that transaction activity fall in the market. So even though we may not get these interest rate cuts until later in the year, generally speaking, at least the buyers and so what we're hearing and seeing in our pipeline is a little bit of a confidence on the buyer side that okay interest rates are at least at a peak and likely to come down and just psychologically that's enough movement right to sort of thaw that ice which will lead to increased transactions.

Speaker 1

So having said that like I think I would say Q1 is still was still a little slow, but I think we're sort of seeing an increase in the pipeline that as we get to sort of the end of Q1, I think as we project into Q2, we sort of see it as a continual snowball effect to get back to sort of normal levels, which is very consistent with how we would sort of see ourselves coming out of any cycle historically. And Jeff, if you want to add any comments to that?

Speaker 5

Yes. No, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think generally speaking Q1 as we've said many times before obviously tends to be a slower quarter more typically irrespective of the broader environment. And so where and when fresh allocations, more conventional lower cost capital comes out of the gate and tends to deploy quite quickly initially. I think that we are still seeing that reality play through and that's affecting transactional activity like early on in 'twenty four.

Speaker 5

But again to Scott's point, I think the expectations for transactional activity to pick up even ahead of a formal reduction in the rate reality should lead to what was last year, yes, slow year transactionally speaking. Obviously, we continue to benefit from refinancing opportunities and we'll do so on a going forward basis. But with pickup in transactional activity, we do expect to see a meaningful increase in flow for our business as well.

Operator

David, it's Blair. I'll just jump in with maybe 2 points. And one's probably almost stating the obvious, but I mean, you want the repayments at this point in the cycle, don't you? So you can turn around and make new loans with current valuations and that kind of leads into the second one, which is if you look at our average LGB, it's been drifting lower for a little while. And as the book turns over and we're the

Speaker 4

B, obviously, in that

Operator

calculation is current values. A few points towards historical average, which helps on winning business as well. So just sort of the tied in with Scott and Jeff's comments about flow.

Speaker 3

Okay. Understood on all of that. Thank you. Second question is just around the commentary of pushing more into non income producing loans. And if you can kind of give us a little bit of perspective, I guess today it's around, say, 15%.

Speaker 3

What level are you comfortable with? What kind of spread do you anticipate getting on non income producing loans versus the more like the income producing loans? And I guess just like how are we factoring that into obviously, you're talking about risk adjusted returns on this, but walk us through some of those dynamics.

Speaker 1

That's a good question and that's a reference in the MD and A. I wrote that. So what it is actually, we look at the market, it's an interesting market right now, right. As we get to this transitional point, we are historically, call it, to your point, Jamie, 85%, 90% focused on income producing loans. It's the bread and butter of what we do and we'll continue to do.

Speaker 1

And we historically we have always had a portion of the book in non income producing, which I will broadly define that as construction, land and some sort of condo inventory type of product. And we historically, although we do specific deals that we like the risk return dynamics, When the market gets a little frothy, it's just a product that we don't lean into. When we look at the market today, although we're experienced in this product, right? We look at the market today given circumstances, there's some really attractive opportunities in the market. So this is either deals that are lower LTV or higher priced or a stronger sponsor that is in the market looking for sort of a bridge loan on their position because an existing lender is over their balance sheet is too high with these type of loans.

Speaker 1

So I think for us it's just we're exploring some opportunities that we historically just we're just seeing that right risk return profile that we would think it makes sense to add to our position. So that said, when we say that nothing too dramatic, I would sit there and say, are we going to add 5% to 10% max to this is where my head would be at, Jamie. So if we go to an eightytwenty mix, 75twenty 5 as an absolute max, but it will very much be driven by the opportunity. Like we want to be opportunistic in 2024. This is one of those great vintages to lean into coming out of a cycle where we're very happy to put loans on the book this year and we will do it where we think we can get that best compelling opportunity.

Speaker 1

And then that said, if we are not satisfied and we don't we are not comfortable with the situation, we are more than happy to keep the mix at the historical norm. But just a little bit of a telegraphing that we may see some opportunity, might see a bit of a swing on that ratio in the near term.

Speaker 5

Yes. And then the only thing I would just add further, I think to address the one sort of residual question you had there. I mean, in general for this these non income producing asset classes where and when you step in at points in the market where again the more conventional lenders are saturated or over allocated per se, it does allow you to reduce the leverage point at which you're lending into these spaces and increase the spread, right? So land is a good example where the market on a normal course basis could be 65% or 70% of value in the prime 150% sort of range. When we step into a space where again it's largely saturated, we tend to cap LTVs on land at 50 and you can really push pricing 100 to 150 basis points beyond that kind of conventional spread in these moments in time where and when there's opportunity, right.

Speaker 5

So I'd say it's 10% leverage less than the income side and 100 plus basis points on pricing as a guide.

Speaker 4

So I view

Speaker 1

it as a moment in time, right. It's just where we like to be opportunistic and we just think this is an opportunity. How long that will last? I mean We'll see when interest rates come down and things continue to stabilize. It might be a 6 month, 9 month window, but we're not going to shy away from it if we think that it's compelling.

Speaker 4

Okay.

Speaker 3

And somewhat tied to that question is, would you expect to see higher lender fees attached to these types of properties? I have seen a little bit of a pickup here in recent quarters on the lender fees received. Is that what maybe what's driving that? And then again, do you expect to get higher lender fees from non income?

Speaker 1

Yes, not necessarily, because we are still looking at sort of first mortgage opportunities here, pretty conservative. I think you get more in the overall coupon, but

Speaker 5

Yes, I mean, yes, I mean, it's possible you get another 25 bps on fee, but it tends to be more on the face rate of the coupon where you're seeing that increase.

Speaker 1

Okay. Higher fees are more with your debt. Say that again? Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 4

I was going to say

Speaker 1

the higher fees typically come with you sort of more second mortgages junior debt, but that's not what we're looking to pivot into.

Operator

Got it.

Speaker 3

Okay. So, yes, last question then was just going to be on the provisions in the quarter. Obviously, we had the recovery in the I guess, the 7 loans. And it sounds like things are progressing well, but a step up in the provisioning this quarter relative to last three quarters. Maybe describe what's driving that?

Speaker 3

Obviously, interest accruals is a piece of it, but there's another portion there that would be tied to expectations of future losses. And so a little bit more color maybe on what was driving the increase.

Speaker 2

Yes, sure. Hi, Damian. It's a couple of functions, one of which is just kind of at year end looking more closely at the underlying valuations of the collateral activity's value. So there's a bit of reflection on that. In some cases, just really the cost of holding the property.

Speaker 2

So in the case of the inventory loans with the receiver, they're just drag the longer that we hold that, that was part of the increase. Then just like most of it really is just reflecting the LTVs and underlying valuations on the loans themselves, which generally drove a bit of an increase of provisions.

Speaker 3

Okay. And all of that would be recoverable, I guess, aside from the cost of holding the properties. Is that correct?

Speaker 2

Yes. And the way the model works is that you are expected to recognize expected lifetime losses. So in the case of condo inventory, for example, you might put an 18 month period on that, but we might be out of it in 6 months. So in that case, you would provision for 18 months of kind of receiver costs and the like, which may not actually come to fruition.

Speaker 4

If I could start off with the special dividend, so positive surprise this quarter. Just wondering what led to the decision of a special this year, I guess, when you haven't done so in the past and more specifically like balancing between issuing a special or redirecting that, I guess, excess earnings towards more buybacks or even, I guess, at a stretch increasing the regular dividend? Like, could you give more color around that decision?

Operator

Sure. It's Blair. So, I mean, obviously, mix are built to be flow through vehicles. And generally speaking, you need to pay what you earn. We're very pleased that we were able to generate record net income this year.

Operator

And at a basic level, we discussed with the board what the logical conclusion was to do with that cash and concluded that our investors would be pleased to receive an incremental amount. So that's kind of the short answer. As to a special versus a dividend increase, as we've been talking about for the past 15 minutes or whatever the case may be, we're very optimistic about what lies ahead, both this year and going forward as we end up in a more normalized rate environment as contrasted to the super low rate environment that we've all been in for 6, 7 years, whatever the case may be, more. So, we'd love to talk about increasing the regular dividend at some point in time, but it's just there's no in our view and the Board's view, there's no need to do that right now. The market there are some other examples obviously in the market of specials at year end and we're just happy to be able to offer our shareholders something similar.

Speaker 4

Okay, understood. And just to confirm, when you were sizing the special dividend, do you look at IFRS earnings or distributable income when deciding on the size of the special?

Speaker 2

We look at both. Obviously, distributable income is what we look to operationally as a cash measure, but really the mix test is actually based on tax earnings, which is a little bit different than IFRS and DI and I it's when losses and such are realizing some other timing differences. So that said, we look at all of those earnings together and they generally trend around the same amount as being compliant and look at tax earnings

Speaker 4

ultimately. Okay, understood. If I could shift to your Stage 2 and Stage 3 loans, so good progress this quarter and appreciate the extra disclosure on MD and A as always. On the group selection loans, the one under CCWA proceedings, just wanted to confirm with the new JV partner in the mix, is this pretty much a done deal or do you need something else to happen for this to close? And then secondly, once it is closed, are you able to share maybe a rough timeline on when do you think that could be completed and then sold eventually down the road?

Speaker 5

Yes. So I mean, the JV with the new partner, that deal was closed. We are under forbearance terms essentially to bring the loan back on side, which is essentially tied to the discharge of some residual liens that came

Speaker 4

that were

Speaker 5

put on title through this extended CCAA process. That process is well underway. Significant process has been made in that respect. Meaningful cash has been posted in escrow as it relates to crude interest and other costs related to this transaction through the CCAA period. So that one is lined up.

Speaker 5

It's a done deal. It's just a matter of course. Construction has resumed. We have not resumed advances advances under our normal facility ahead of liens being discharged and everything else, but that is moving forward and in very good shape. So the expectation there is that this project will be complete and ready for lease, call it, July, which is a critical date in the Quebec market, but that's an expectation and then expectation to be refinanced shortly thereafter in that position.

Speaker 5

Understood. Yes. And then the other asset, we are 3rd party manager has been in place now for a number of months. We've seen significant improvement in terms of the ongoing operations with the change in management, both from a lease up perspective, rent growth standpoint, expense reduction perspective, and we've seen, I think it was as was mentioned in some of the earlier comments, kind of that in place running yield has been increasing nicely with the change in management and certainly management was a critical issue in the prior challenges for this asset as well as we continue to explore potential sale and that's ongoing.

Speaker 4

Okay, understood. And just my last question, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there was this transition from Stage 2 to Stage 3 loans, the 2 office properties and 1 retail property against the same sponsor in Calgary. Could you give more color as to why just these 3 assets transition because I believe the one office property is still in Stage 2. So just some more color what led to the transition? And then is there any risk of the one that's still there in Stage 2, any risk of that going into Stage 3 as well?

Speaker 1

So it all ties back to the signing of forbearance agreement. So these are they're separate loans. So the one that went from that's date in stage 2, we signed the forbearance agreement, so we have an arranged a deal with the borrower, projected cash, a new sort of a new structure involved in the loan and so just as that sort of stabilized and it's a 2 year forbearance agreement. So there's plenty of times are worked in to stabilize the asset. And there's a path forward, right, a defined path forward.

Speaker 1

So that keeps that in stage 2. The other two loans which has the 2 office buildings and a retail building, those ones were negotiating the forbearance agreement and we just haven't we are close, we just haven't finalized we don't have a signed contract and because of that, because this loan is technically in arrears, staging is a very business there is a qualitative test, but it's a very quantitative test as well when you get beyond X number of days, it pushes into stage 3. So because we haven't finalized a forbearance agreement, it's a matter of course move to Stage 3. And again, our expectations is we will sign an agreement and if we do so, those loans would go back to stage 2 for Q1. And so and therefore the one that is in stage 2 that has a signed forbearance agreement, we expect that should stay in stage 2 and that will stay in stage 2 until we sort of stabilize the property and or the exit strategy.

Speaker 1

Okay. Tracy, do you want

Speaker 4

to add to that? I think that's it.

Speaker 1

No, I think

Speaker 2

you covered it all.

Speaker 4

Perfect. Thank you. That's it for me.

Speaker 2

If there are no more questions, I will turn the call back to Blair for final remarks.

Operator

Great. Thank you, operator. And as usual, we appreciate everyone's time dialing in and listening to the update. Certainly happy with what we were able to report today and look forward to doing so in 90 days again. Have a good afternoon.

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Earnings Conference Call
Timbercreek Financial Q4 2023
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