NACCO Industries Q4 2024 Earnings Report

NACCO Industries EPS Results

• Actual EPS: $1.02
• Consensus EPS: N/A
• Beat/Miss: N/A
• One Year Ago EPS: N/A

NACCO Industries Revenue Results

• Actual Revenue: $70.42 million
• Expected Revenue: N/A
• Beat/Miss: N/A
• YoY Revenue Growth: N/A

NACCO Industries Announcement Details

• Quarter: Q4 2024
• Date: 3/5/2025
• Time: After Market Closes
• Conference Call Date: Thursday, March 6, 2025
• Conference Call Time: 8:30AM ET

NACCO Industries (NYSE:NC) (NYSE: NC) is a natural resources company that develops and manages mineral assets in the United States. Through its subsidiaries, the company primarily provides contract mining and natural resources services to utilities, industrial customers and other mineral producers.

Its principal business is operated through The North American Coal Corporation, which provides mine planning, permitting, development, engineering, operations and reclamation services. The company develops and operates surface coal mines, primarily supplying lignite and other forms of coal to power generation facilities under long-term contracts. Its mining capabilities also support the production of aggregates and other industrial minerals.

NACCO’s Minerals Management business manages mineral interests and receives royalties from third-party extraction of coal, aggregates and other resources. The company’s activities are concentrated in the United States, where it works with customers and partners to develop and manage domestic mineral reserves.

NACCO Industries Q4 2024 Earnings Call Transcript

Key Takeaways

• Robust 2024 financial results: Fourth‐quarter net income of $7.6 million and full‐year net income of $33.7 million, with adjusted EBITDA up 27% in Q4 and 116% year‐over‐year for the full year.
• Coal mining segment surge: Segment adjusted EBITDA more than quadrupled from 2023, driven by $13.6 million of business interruption insurance at Mississippi Lignite and improved operational efficiency at Red Hills and unconsolidated mines.
• North American Mining growth: Executed two new contracts and amended one existing agreement adding ~$20 million of after‐tax NPV, and expanded scope at the Thacker Pass lithium project to include clay tailings transport for increased long‐term income.
• Minerals Management diversification: Invested $15.7 million in Hugoton Basin oil and gas assets and recognized a $4.5 million gain on asset sales, positioning the segment for accretive future earnings.
• 2025 outlook headwinds: Coal segment operating profit is expected to decrease modestly due to a lower contract price at Mississippi Lignite and higher expenses, and consolidated net income is forecast to decline moderately excluding a one‐time pension settlement charge.

Presentation

[Operator]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the NACCO Industries 2024 fourth quarter and full year earnings conference call. At this time, all lines are in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. If at any time during this call you require immediate assistance, please press star zero for the operator. This call is being recorded on Thursday, March 6, 2025. I would now like to turn the conference over to Christina Kmetko, investor relations. Please go ahead.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our 2024 fourth quarter and full year earnings call and webcast. Thank you for joining us this morning. I'm Christina Kmetko, and I'm responsible for investor relations at NACCO. Joining me today are J.C. Butler, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Elizabeth Loveman, Senior Vice President and Controller.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Yesterday, we published our 2024 fourth quarter and full year results and filed our 10-K. This information is available on our website. Our remarks that follow, including answers to your questions, contain forward-looking statements. These statements are subject to several risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed in the forward-looking statements made here today. These risks include, among others, matters that we've described in our earnings release, 10-K, and other SEC filings. We may not update these forward-looking statements until our next quarterly earnings conference call.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

We'll also be discussing non-GAAP information that we believe is useful in evaluating the company's operating performance. Reconciliations for these non-GAAP measures can be found in our earnings release and on our website. With the formalities out of the way, I'll turn the call over to J.C. for some opening remarks. J.C.?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Thank you, Christy, and good morning, everyone. We delivered solid fourth quarter results, which represented a strong finish to a successful year. For those who follow us closely, you will recall that last year I noted that all the unfavorable comparisons we experienced throughout what was a challenging 2023 should turn favorable in 2024. I am pleased to say that is exactly what happened.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Our company delivered robust 2024 fourth quarter net income of $7.6 million and full year net income of $33.7 million. Fourth quarter adjusted EBITDA of $9 million increased almost 27% over fourth quarter 2023, and full year adjusted EBITDA of $59.4 million increased 116% year-over-year.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Before I provide more color on the year, I want to recognize our outstanding employees. I am extremely proud of the way these talented, dedicated, and motivated individuals continue to deliver success. These are the folks who produced our significantly improved 2024 results. They continue to find new and innovative ways to support our customers while working to implement our grow and diversify strategies. I want to thank each of them for the hard work and many contributions that they put forth to strengthen us today and to secure new opportunities for our future. I am honored each and every day to work alongside such an amazing team.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Our strong 2024 performance was led by our Coal Mining segment, where segment adjusted EBITDA more than quadrupled from 2023. North American Mining delivered a 35% increase in segment adjusted EBITDA, and Minerals Management generated a 21% increase in segment adjusted EBITDA.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Much of the Coal Mining segment's improvement occurred at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company. While this mine dealt with its customer's plant running with only one boiler for more than half the year, business interruption insurance income of $13.6 million received in the third quarter helped offset the reduction in customer demand.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Despite lower revenues at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company due to reduced customer demand, the Red Hills mine operated more efficiently in 2024 than a year ago when it was finalizing the move to a new mine area and contending with difficult mining conditions. Those challenges are now behind us.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Earnings at our unconsolidated Coal Mining operations also improved, with an increase in earnings at both Coteau and Falkirk. Specifically, Falkirk experienced increased customer demand and a higher per-ton management fee beginning in June 2024 when the temporary price concessions associated with Rainbow Energy's acquisition of Coal Creek Station ended.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

We're encouraged that evolving policy frameworks seem to be creating a more favorable regulatory environment for the fossil fuel industry moving forward, and demand for dependable electricity is projected to outpace supply. These developments are expected to further support coal as an essential part of the energy mix in the United States for the foreseeable future.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Shifting to North American Mining, this segment continues to benefit from progress on operational and strategic projects that have improved profitability and will continue to do so. In addition to the segment adjusted EBITDA improvement, full year operating profit of $5.8 million was up 72% compared with 2023. However, North American Mining experienced lower profitability in the second half of 2024 compared with the first half. This decline was due in part to an overall reduction in demand, partly attributable to the ongoing effects of three hurricanes in Florida in the second half of the year.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

We expect North American Mining to generate increasing levels of operating profit and EBITDA over time as benefits from new and extended contracts add to the profitability of existing contracts. During 2024, North American Mining executed two new contracts and amended an existing contract, all of which are expected to deliver net present value of after-tax cash flows of approximately $20 million over contract terms which range from six-20 years.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Wrapping up my North American Mining comments, let me mention Sawtooth Mining, which is the exclusive contract miner for Lithium Americas' Thacker Pass lithium project in Northern Nevada. Lithium Americas continues to make progress on the Thacker Pass project, and we continue to support the project by assisting with certain construction services as they ramp up work to build the lithium processing plant.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

In the fourth quarter of 2024, we and Lithium Americas agreed to expand the scope of our work to include transportation of clay tailings once lithium production commences. This expansion of work comes with an expected increase in our income from this long-term project. Phase one production is estimated to begin in late 2027.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

At Minerals Management, the 2024 adjusted EBITDA improvement was primarily due to a $4.5 million gain on sale of assets. Excluding the gain, Minerals Management's 2024 earnings were comparable to 2023. We are very pleased with the work done by the Catapult Mineral Partners team, which manages this segment. They have greatly expanded our portfolio of mineral interests so that we are now more diversified in terms of our oil and gas mix. We work with a wider range of operators.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

We have a greater geographic footprint, and we own interests in various stages of mineral development, ranging from producing wells to undeveloped mineral interests. This expansion continued in the fourth quarter of 2024 when Minerals Management invested an additional $15.7 million in a company that holds non-operated working interests in oil and natural gas assets in the Kansas and Oklahoma portions of the Hugoton basin. This investment is expected to be accretive to future earnings.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

While we continue to budget up to $20 million annually to expand our portfolio and provide long-term stable cash flow generation, our business model allows flexibility regarding the cadence and type of investment based on available opportunities that we believe will result in significant long-term value and increasing profitability. We believe that this expansion and diversification program has us well positioned to generate increasing levels of operating profit and EBITDA well into the future.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Finally, moving to Mitigation Resources of North America, I'm pleased to note that the business contributed positively to operating profit and EBITDA during the 2024 fourth quarter and is expected to achieve full year operating profit in 2025 based on current expectations for the business. Our expectations were bolstered in January when the team secured a restoration project in Kentucky, which is expected to be accretive to earnings beginning in 2026. We believe Mitigation Resources is on track to increase profitability over time.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Overall, I'm excited about our business trajectory. I'm optimistic about the future, and I'm pleased with the way all of these businesses continue to advance their strategies. I believe 2025 is a pivotal year for our company as our legacy businesses stabilize and our new businesses gain traction. We are proud of what we have accomplished thus far and have confidence in our journey. We love our story and intend to increase our level of shareholder engagement in the coming year. Look for more information about that in the months to come. With that, I'll turn the call back over to Christy to cover our quarterly results and outlook.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Thank you, J.C. I'll start with some high-level comments about our consolidated fourth quarter financial results, then I'll discuss the results at our individual segments and our 2025 outlook. We reported consolidated operating profit of $3.9 million and net income of $7.6 million or $1.02 per share. Last year, we reported a fourth quarter operating loss of $67.4 million and a net loss of $44 million or a loss of $5.88 per share.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Adjusted EBITDA increased to $9 million from $7.1 million in 2023. The 2023 financial results included a $65.9 million pre-tax asset impairment charge. I'd note that $60.8 million of the impairment was in the 2023 Coal Mining segment results and $5.1 million was in mineral management's results.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Our Coal Mining segment reported operating profit of $2 million and generated segment adjusted EBITDA of $4.2 million in the 2024 fourth quarter. This compares to an operating loss of $62.3 million and segment adjusted EBITDA of $3.2 million in 2023. Segment adjusted EBITDA increased 32.6%, primarily due to higher earnings at the unconsolidated operations as a result of increased pricing at Falkirk and improved earnings at Coteau, as well as increased customer requirements at both mines. Lower operating expenses also contributed to the higher Coal Mining results.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

North American Mining reported a fourth quarter 2024 operating profit of $800,000 compared with a $600,000 operating loss in the prior year. The improvements in operating results and segment adjusted EBITDA were mainly due to reduced operating expenses, particularly outside services. The prior year results also included a $500,000 loss on sale of a dragline sold in connection with the extension of a customer contract.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Minerals Management's fourth quarter 2024 operating profit improved to $7.2 million, up from $2.5 million in 2023, primarily because the prior year quarter included a $5.1 million impairment charge. Revenues and segment adjusted EBITDA, which excludes the 2023 impairment charge, were generally comparable to the prior year.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Looking forward, our businesses provide critical inputs for electricity generation, construction and development, and the production of industrial minerals and chemicals. Increasing demand for electricity, onshoring, and current federal policies are creating favorable macro and economic trends within these industries. As J.C. mentioned, we are confident in our trajectory and business prospects as we enter 2025 and prepare for longer-term growth opportunities. Specifically, in 2025, we expect to generate a modest year-over-year increase in consolidated operating profit.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

In 2025, the Coal Mining segment anticipates solid customer demand, with deliveries expected to increase modestly from 2024. In addition, the Coal Mining segment expects to benefit from the absence of temporary price concessions at Falkirk.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

At our Mississippi Lignite Mining Company, they continue to recover from inefficiencies experienced while the customer's Red Hills power plant operated on one of two generation units for more than half of 2024. With the power plant now anticipated to operate at a level consistent with historical averages, coal deliveries are expected to return to more normal levels, resulting in modestly improved cost efficiencies. However, an anticipated reduction in the 2025 contractually determined per-ton sales price compared with 2024 is expected to offset these improvements, leading to lower results at Mississippi Lignite Mining Company. This, combined with an anticipated increase in operating expenses in the coal segment, overall is expected to result in a modest year-over-year decrease in Coal Mining segment operating profit.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

North American Mining is expected to deliver improved results in 2025, predominantly in the second half of the year, based on expectations for comparable year-over-year customer demand. Minerals Management's high-quality, diversified portfolio of oil and gas mineral interests provides a strong foundation of well-positioned assets that are expected to continue to deliver solid financial results. Minerals Management's recent investment in the Hugoton basin is expected to be accretive to earnings in 2025.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Overall, Minerals Management's 2025 operating profit is anticipated to be comparable to 2024. Lower first half earnings are expected to be offset by an improvement in the second half, given forecasted trends in oil and natural gas prices and projected volumes.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

We started the process to terminate our defined benefit pension plan in 2024 and expect that process to be completed in 2025. This will eliminate future volatility from changes in our pension obligation. Once complete, obligations under the terminated plan will be transferred to a third-party insurance provider. Although the plan is currently overfunded, a significant non-cash settlement charge is anticipated upon termination. Excluding that anticipated charge, net income is expected to decrease moderately compared with 2024.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Before I turn the call over to questions, let me close with some information about our liquidity and cash flow. We ended the year with consolidated cash of approximately $73 million and debt of $99.5 million. Availability under our revolver was approximately $99 million.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

In 2024, we paid $6.6 million in dividends and repurchased approximately 317,000 shares of our Class A common stock at prevailing market prices for an aggregate purchase price of $9.9 million. As of December 31, 2024, we had $8.5 million remaining under our $20 million share repurchase program that expires at the end of this year, 2025. We expect significant annual cash flow generation in 2025 and future years based on our current business plan. We will now turn to any questions you may have.

[Operator]

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Should you have a question, please press star followed by the one on your touch-tone phone. You will hear a prompt that your hand has been raised. Should you wish to decline from the polling process, please press star followed by the two. If you are using a speakerphone, please lift the handset before pressing any keys. One moment, please, for your first question. Your first question comes from Doug Weiss with DSW Investment. Your line is now open.

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

It appears Doug dropped.

[Operator]

Yes.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Not certain what happened.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, should you have a question, please press star one.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

My guess is that was an accident. Doug's going to dial back in.

[Operator]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

Give him a minute.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

While we wait, I would like to provide a few reminders. A replay of our call will be available online later this morning. We'll also post a transcript on the investor relations website when it becomes available. If you have any questions, please reach out to me. You can reach me at the phone number on the press release. We don't still have Doug. I'm not certain what happened.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I mean, I don't know where he is. It could be power outage. It could be internet outage. It could be battery went dead.

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

Yes.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

We have no other questions.

[Operator]

No. Did you want to wait a moment longer?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I mean, if he's rebooting, we probably ought to give him a minute to reboot.

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

Yeah.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

He dropped right as he went through.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

[audio distortion]

[Operator]

Okay. There we go. Your line is open, Doug.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Oh, hi. Yeah, sorry about that. My phone dropped just as the Q&A started. On the coal business, I think the results are a little better than they looked at first, if I'm right, because you had a $6 million inventory write-down in that division. Is that accurate?

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

We have taken inventory write-downs. That's correct.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

I mean, yeah. I think a lot of companies would add that back to EBITDA. If I do that, the division did about $10 million of EBITDA. Would you argue that is not a reasonable adjustment? I guess, in other words, is that a reasonable? if I add that back and start with the $10 million, is that a reasonable baseline for next year on a kind of run rate basis?

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

I mean, we gave some information on the coal segment, which specifically is our Red Hills mine, that we think the sales price is going to be lower next year compared to this year, and it's really contractually determined sales price. I don't know. I'd look at what we said about MLMC, Mississippi Lignite Mining Company, and the outlook.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Right. Okay.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

We have not added it back, Doug, because it has been recurring over the past year. Each quarter, we have taken a write-down. That is why we have included it within our numbers as opposed to excluding it.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Right.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Look, it's called out as an individual number. I mean, everybody can do their own analysis if they want to add that back.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Right. Right. Right. Okay. I guess on the MLMC volumes, despite having that second boiler come back online, they're still a little bit light. I guess your guidance suggests you see that strengthening next year.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

The plant was down. One boiler was down for half the year. They also had an outage later in the year. Anytime there's a significant outage, which this was, they get inside and decide what else might they need to do that they could schedule at the same time. I think some of that took a little longer than we had expected. I would not read anything significant into the volumes from last year compared to going forward.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Okay. Okay. I guess I'm still struggling to kind of, and maybe I just have to wait for next quarter to get a handle on what normal MLMC gross profit looks like. I guess, last quarter, it was kind of break-even-ish on a gross profit basis. This quarter, it was a loss, but then that includes that inventory write-down. I don't know if there's anything more you could say about. You have stronger volume come in, but then you have a price reduction.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Let's just [crosstalk].

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

[crosstalk]

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

If you don't mind, we'll just do the pieces of that, right? Of course, you've got volume. When we know that there's going to be any kind of significant outage that's going to affect volume, I think we generally, although not always, try to signal that so that investors know what to expect. That's the volume side.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I mean, I will say, in general, as we all know, there's increasing demand for electricity across the country. It will vary plant by plant, power plant by power plant. We think, generally, that's going to be helpful with respect to electron sales, which is directly related to coal deliveries at all of our plants or at all of our mines with respect to all of our utility customers.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Then you go to price, right? At Red Hills, price is determined by a contractual formula that's based on some indices that reflect general costs involved in mining. I will tell you that throughout the history of this mine, which is now 25 years, generally, the price has gone up with inflation month after month, quarter after quarter, year after year.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

The way the formula works: It's right now producing a decrease in price, which I would view as, I view that as an aberration rather than the norm. I think that will readjust itself into a more normal pattern going forward, although we all know it's impossible to predict exactly where inflation's headed generally, as well as with respect to specific indices.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Right. So you get volume, you've got price, and then the other part is our cost. I would tell you, when you look at our costs, we've spent the last couple of years, and I know you know this, we spent the last couple of years opening a new mine area and spending quite a bit of capital in getting all that up and running. That's now done. What that's done is put a significant amount of depreciation into our cost structure.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

The life of the mine goes to 2032. We do not see significant additional capital requirements. There will be some, but they're not anywhere near the extent that we've had the last few years. Your depreciation: In a typical manufacturing business, you would think of depreciation and maintenance CapEx offsetting each other. In our businesses, that's not really true.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

In particular, here, you're going to see up gross profit, as you mentioned, operating profit as we think about it, including an elevated level of depreciation that really, to me, is an add-back because we're not in a position where we're going to have to replace that depreciation with more CapEx. Those are just some things to think about as you're looking at MLMC in particular. Is that helpful?

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

That is helpful. I think you said $13 million of CapEx for the coal segment. Is some of that going to the unconsolidated entities?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Our customers fund all of the CapEx of the unconsolidated entities. We do not fund any of that CapEx. Customers pay all the costs. They provide all the capital.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay. So that, I mean, to push back a little bit, isn't that level of CapEx above your depreciation level for MLMC?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Remember some of that CapEx is money from prior years that just didn't get spent.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

If you look back, I don't know, let's say a year ago, although I can't be, maybe you guys can be specific. If you look back, we were saying 2025 was going to be lower CapEx levels. We didn't spend things in 2024, and that's pushed over into 2025. CapEx looks like it's bumped up a little bit, but anytime you can delay spending capital, that, of course, is a good thing. This capital expenditure isn't a surprise increase. It's just money that didn't get spent that's tailing into this year, for the most part.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Got it. Got it. Just quickly on the price reset, are you able to say sort of what it inflation is still I mean inflation is still going up. Are you able to say what created that aberration that brought the associated price down [crosstalk]?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

It's an incredibly complex formula that looks at period-versus-period changes in a basket of specific indices that are related to mining inputs. One of those is an index with respect to labor costs. One of those is related to diesel costs. There are a number of other indices that are in there. Because there's period-versus-period comparison, it's really looking at the change over time, not a specific individual level. That's what can cause some of these swings.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I will tell you that this contract was executed back in the middle 1990s, maybe early 1990s. It was before any of us were around. It is not a pricing formula that any of us would sign up for today, but it's what we live with. It also ties to the contract between the power plant and TVA with respect to the electron sales. It kind of is what it is.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

I see. I see. Okay. Got it. On the Minerals Management division, obviously, gas prices have come up a lot over the last month or two. I wondered if your guidance reflected some conservatism on prices. Or is it that, given the low prices last year, drilling has come down? Or well expansion has come down. And it's going to take some time to get that going again, assuming prices hold at these higher levels.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I mean, I'll tell you generally, culturally, we don't see a lot of upside in being overly optimistic. I know there's lots of companies out there that do that, but that, to me, leads to overpromising and under-delivering. We would rather be more on the conservative side of things because there's just little upside in us getting out on the edge of our projections.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

There's definitely some conservatism in there, both with respect to pricing, I would say, as well as with respect to volume production and the timing of new development. We tend to be pretty conservative how we think about those things, but if we end up with some nice upsides from that, that's great for all of us.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay. Great. Makes sense. On North American Mining, I guess, first, you had the weather effects at the end of last year, and you had mentioned on the last call that sometimes you see a pickup as there's some rebuilding after hurricanes. Are you seeing that at this point?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Maybe in a small way, but the damage was pretty severe, especially through Central Florida. I think we're yet to see how this really plays out with respect to pickup over and above what would be a normal level of production related to the hurricane.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

It's sort of back to normal, but you're not seeing elevated demand.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I'm sorry. Can you say that again?

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Trends are kind of back to where they were before the hurricanes, but you haven't seen any sort of extra demand. Is that?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Yeah. I'd say they're headed that direction. Are we seeing a post-hurricane bump yet? I don't think we are to any significant extent. Generally, I can't promise how it plays out in this particular situation. Generally, you do see a bump six-12 months later following the hurricanes. This is a little different because you got three in a row.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Right. Right. Yep. I spent some time on the North American Mining website and going through your case. I guess what I've concluded, and let me know if I'm wrong on this, is that that business is differentiated versus a lot of mining operations in both the dragline expertise and the ability to mine quarries that are submerged.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

I think the language changed a little bit in the case you released yesterday, and also the website seems to be changing a little bit. My impression is that as you expand that business, you're going to be doing less of that work. I guess, a, is that correct? If that's true, does that have implications for the economics of the business and your ability to add customers? I wonder if you could kind of talk to that a little bit.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Yeah. North American Mining. And I apologize, but we're going to do a little bit of history here, right? North American Mining came back in 1995, was the origin of this, working with a customer that we still work for in Southern Florida. They were looking for somebody that had dragline operating expertise, and we started helping them. That grew somewhat until 2015, over that 20 years. In 2015, we really started focusing on how do we grow this business pretty substantially.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

That led us to really take a deep dive into what are our unique skills that give us a competitive advantage in this space. One of those competitive advantages is we are told by one of the largest equipment manufacturers in the world that they believe that we operate more draglines than any other company in the world. There may be some countries who operate more, but they think we operate more than anybody else.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

You start fundamentally with a unique piece of equipment that requires some specialized skills in order to get the full productivity capabilities out of that piece of equipment. You take that to Florida, and it is even more specialized because in Florida, primarily, we are mining quarries where the aggregates are underwater. It is a further specialization of the skill. We are really the only people that are doing that at any scale at all in the United States. There are some small players out there, but they tend to have smaller equipment. They are sort of much smaller businesses than we are. They do not have the resources to really approach this business like we do.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Florida is not the only place that has quarries where you are mining underwater. I will tell you, one of the contracts that we have signed with an existing customer, we will be mining starting in 2026. Starting in 2026, we're going to be mining underwater in Arizona.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I will tell you, when we first heard about this, I said, "There's no way that they're mining underwater in Arizona because the water table must be so low." That is not actually the case. This is an opportunity for us to do the same thing in Arizona, and it can be done other places in the country as well. There are probably plenty of opportunities for us to continue to expand this business, which we view as operating a very specialized piece of mining equipment in a unique way.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

When you get beyond draglines mining underwater, you'll note that we've also been using surface miners, both in our coal operation, which we've been doing for a long time for sort of surgical extraction of coal. We've been operating a surface miner, which is like when you're driving down the road and you see those milling machines that are chewing up the pavement and putting it into a truck. It's the same kind of machine that we use, except much, much larger and obviously with much stronger extraction capability.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

We have been using a piece of equipment like that to help a customer extract limestone. The advantages of that are you don't have to, the customer doesn't have to crush it to the same extent because the machine already grinds it up, and you don't have to incur blasting.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

You think about quarries in fast-growing areas. I mean we do not operate in this area, but I am just going to say there are quarries around San Antonio. You think how San Antonio has grown tremendously in the last several years. They now have businesses and housing closer to these quarries, and they have trouble with blasting. These are dry quarries. We think that this is a piece of equipment where, again, we have very specific expertise where we think that we can go provide this service to others in a way that will be good for their business.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Now, in every instance, our main competition for the work that we do is the quarry operator themselves. I would say a majority of quarry operators do their own mining. As we work with more and more of these guys, we see that there are lots of opportunities to bring our expertise to the table and let them.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

They want to focus on what they're good at, which is reading their market, securing their reserves, processing it in the proper way, selling it, and all that. Their expertise doesn't necessarily lie in mining. This is where we come in, and we think that we can provide the mining services for them in a way that is more economical and effective than they can do themselves. We can do so. So we can save them money, and we can make enough of a margin that is attractive to us. That's really the framework around this business.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Now, with respect to the aggregates. In aggregate, a quarry is a pretty simple thing where you're extracting the aggregate, you're crushing it, you're selling it. We're doing the same thing at Sawtooth in Northern Nevada for the lithium mine, except there, instead of just running the extraction equipment, we're actually running the whole mine. It's much more like a coal mining operation where you've got to strip the topsoil and do permitting and do all this work to ultimately extract the resource. It is the same kind of very specialized mining but in a very traditional way with respect to the lithium mine. It's a long answer, but I hope that's helpful.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

That is helpful. Are the economics or the margins similar on the dragline work versus the surface mining work?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I would say generally yes. Because, again, you're competing. Our margins are tempered by how somebody could do it themselves. The trick to the expansion in this business, and I guess we allude to this in the earnings release, is when we land a new project. If it's purely services, we're operating equipment that's the dragline or surface miner that's owned by the customer, then there's very little cash-out on our part.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

For the term of the contract, we're going to earn fees based on the work that we do. If we have to put in capital, we will put in capital upfront. There is a capital outlay at the beginning. That's the capital outlay at the beginning. We're going to have to depreciate the equipment, but that's a non-cash charge. Over the life of the contract, we're going to generate very nice returns.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

These things have nice NPVs. They have attractive IRRs. If you think of an annual measurement of return on capital, obviously, that's lower in the beginning when you've got undepreciated capital, and it's much higher later in the contract when you have lower depreciated capital.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Our business overall, not just at North American Mining, is that we seek out long-term contracts or long-term investments with respect to Mitigation Resources. Every year when we sign new contracts, we get new customers. We invest in minerals. We're making a single-year investment that really, I'm going to use the word annuity, but obviously there's different risks than a straight-up annuity. We sign these things up and then know that we're building in our revenue and profit streams for years to come.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

That is what we have been doing the last 10 years in this business, is adding more businesses, adding more projects, adding more opportunities for growth, and building, building, building. We are 2025 is kind of the point when all this is starting to reach a tipping point. As we mentioned, 2025, we think it is going to be cash positive. We think that is going to continue in the future as we add more and more layers of contracts and investments and projects on top of each other.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Wonderful. Then on Thacker Pass: Lithium prices have really come down over the last couple of years. I am just curious if you have any visibility or any thoughts on the timing of. I think it has moved out a little bit, but do you think that is going to be somewhat dependent on a recovery in lithium prices, or do you think it is going to go ahead regardless?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I mean, I think this project got a lot going for it. If you look at the Lithium Americas website, they've got a tremendous amount of information with respect to their project and their reserve and why they believe this is a compelling investment for them. Their disclosures include discussion of their costs.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Amongst the ways that you can get lithium, whether it's bound up in rock or it's a brine process or whatever, the extraction process, the mining process here is comparatively low cost. The process that their facility will go through in order to extract the lithium from the clay is pretty standard stuff. There's no magic in this. It's all standard processes that have been used in other applications. They actually have a pretty low-cost approach to their product that I think withstands a lot of price decrease and still leaves them with very significant profits.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

I would also add that they recently have issued a release where they've proved out. We actually did some of this work with them. They proved out that they are now the largest proved lithium reserve in the world. And it's domestic, right? This is in the United States.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

You think about the number of ways that this thing is highly competitive. It's low cost even at current prices. It's in the United States. Even all the output of this Thacker Pass project in phase one is a tiny drop in the bucket with respect to lithium demand. I feel pretty good about this project overall and our position as the contract miner for them. I would encourage you to go look at the website because they've got a tremendous amount of information. It's a really thoughtful website with a lot of information. You can get way in the weeds in some of their details.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay. Okay. I'll do that. You took the reserve last quarter on the phosphate customer. Is that still not operating, that phosphate work, or is that going to start?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

That is not operating at the current time. We're monitoring the situation and trying to see how that plays out.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay. And then just on the cash flow, working capital was a significant use of cash, and I guess that was receivables and inventory. I guess a couple of questions there. I guess, a, do you think, will working capital be a source of cash, do you think, in 2025? And then on the inventory itself, you gave a little detail, and it's primarily mining supplies. Is that something that's going to fluctuate, or is that sort of an upward trend as you grow North American Mining? What are those mining supplies?

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Yeah. Let me give share some thoughts on working capital, and then I'll give it to Liz for more detail. Working capital for our business operates very different than a typical business that's making things and selling them, and they're looking at how does all that work.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

For us, if you look at our North American Mining business, we will stock parts in advance of significant outages, well, in advance of any outage, regular maintenance, for the many draglines that we operate. Some of these, we own the draglines, and in other instances, our customer owns the draglines. As we see outages coming, we will increase our level of inventory because there may be specific parts that are very long lead time in their nature.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

That will show up as an increase in inventory for a period of time even though we know that we're ultimately going to we're going to put those into an outage at a dragline, and then the inventory will come down. That's kind of a normal ebb and flow that goes through North American Mining based on what it sees coming with respect to outages.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

The other thing I'd add is that, Mitigation Resources, the accounting there is, as we develop mitigation banking credits, whether they're stream credits or wetland credits, those show up as inventory. Then over the life of the mitigation bank, those will be the Army Corps of Engineers and we have agreed on a schedule under which those can be sold over a period of time.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

You'll see inventory build up in that business as well because we create a product which is a stream or wetland credit, goes on the balance sheet as inventory, and then as we sell it, it comes off inventory. Liz, do you want to add to that?

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

As J.C. mentioned, we do expect 2025 to be cash flow positive. Part of that is some favorable changes in working capital. We had some timing differences in trade receivables that should kind of come back in 2025. As J.C. mentioned, we're building up inventory. Part of that is some critical spares as well related to, as we continue to increase the contracts at North American Mining, we have a larger pool of draglines that we need critical spares for.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Okay. When you talk about cash flow positive, you're talking free cash flow, sort of operating cash from operations, less CapEx.

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

Cash flow before financing, yes.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. What was that?

[Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller at NACCO Industries]

Yes. Cash flow before financing.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Right. Okay. Yep. Yep. Got it.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

CapEx before financing.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Yep. Yeah. Okay. All right. I think that's all I have. I really, as always, really appreciate the time, and congrats on you're clearly making progress on all your initiatives. Thanks again, and look forward to talking next quarter.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Thank you for your questions. Sorry you had a little technical glitch in the beginning but glad we stuck around with your questions. Like you say, we love our story, and we're going to engage in a more fulsome way later this year in investor outreach. We look forward to sharing information with everybody about that in months to come.

[Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment]

Great. Thanks.

[J.C. Butler, President and CEO at NACCO Industries]

Thank you.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, should you have a question, please press star one. There are no further questions at this time. I will now turn the call over to Christina for closing remarks.

[Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer at NACCO Industries]

Okay. Thank you so much. I believe, as I mentioned earlier, if you do have any questions, please reach out to me. My phone number is on the release. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day, and I'll turn it back to Joelle to conclude the call.

[Operator]

Ladies and gentlemen, replay information for this call is 1-888-660-6345, passcode 37905, pound key. Again, the number is [audio distortion].

Participants

Executives

• Christina Kmetko, Investor Relations Officer
• J.C. Butler, President and CEO
• Elizabeth Loveman, SVP and Controller

Analysts

• Doug Weiss, Principal and Managing Member at DSW Investment