LightPath Technologies Q1 2025 Earnings Call Transcript

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Provided by Quartr
November 7, 2024

Key Takeaways

  • 30% of Q1 revenue now comes from system and subsystem solutions, underscoring LightPath’s successful shift from component provider to full solutions provider.
  • Awarded Phase 2 funding by the DoD’s Defense Logistics Agency to qualify additional Black Diamond chalcogenide glasses as exclusive germanium replacements in defense applications.
  • Secured new European defense contracts, including an initial development deal and a follow-on order for FPV drone infrared assemblies, validating EU market entry after obtaining regional defense licensing.
  • Expanded its thermal camera portfolio with the Mantis multispectral camera and the OGI optical gas imaging platform, addressing a $9B+ market driven by industrial and regulatory demand.
  • Achieved airworthy qualification on a Lockheed Martin missile subsystem with potential annual revenues of $50–$100M, though final production awards remain pending.
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Earnings Conference Call
LightPath Technologies Q1 2025
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Operator

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for standing by. Welcome to the LightPath Technologies First Quarter Fiscal 2025 Earnings Conference Call. During today's presentation, all parties will be in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation, the conference will be open for questions. This conference is being recorded today, November 7th, 2024, and the earnings press release accompanying this conference call was issued after the market closed today. On our call today is LightPath CEO Sam Rubin and CFO Al Miranda. I'd like to remind you that during the course of this conference call, the company will be making forward-looking statements that are based on current expectations, involve various risks, and uncertainties, as discussed in its periodic SEC filings.

Operator

Although the company believes that the assumptions underlying these statements are reasonable, any of them can be proven to be inaccurate, and there could be no assurance that the projected results would be realized. In addition, references made today may be made to certain financial measures that are not in accordance with generally accepted accounting principles or GAAP. We refer to these as non-GAAP financial measures. Please refer to our SEC reports in certain of our press releases, which include reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures and associated disclaimers. Sam will begin today's call with an overview of the business and recent developments for the company. I will then review financial results for the quarter and the full year. Following our prepared remarks, there will be a formal question-and-answer session. I would now like to turn the conference over to Sam Rubin. Sam, the floor is yours.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, Operator. Good afternoon to everyone, and welcome to LightPath Technologies First Quarter Fiscal 2025 Financial Results Conference Call. The first quarter of 2025 demonstrated our continued transformation from a pure component supplier to a system provider, delivering new products, contracts, and ongoing growth driven by these incremental product lines. Just over three years ago, we set on a fresh course with a new strategic direction, taking us from being a pure component supplier to a solutions provider. Since, we've laid out three pillars of growth, of which our business is built upon. The first is our proprietary cameras and optics. Second are solutions for government and defense, and the third are new commercial applications. For those not familiar with our history, I will provide a brief overview. Prior to this shift, LightPath has been, for the greater part of 30 years, an optical component provider.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

What many years ago was a unique technology, molded optics, has become now a crowded marketplace going through the classic transformation and commoditization. As a result, LightPath's core business was eroding, unit prices decreasing, with them margins and profits. In 2021, we set a course on a new strategic direction, one that leverages some of our key technologies to deliver subsystems and system-level solutions instead of simply just components, which drive higher ASPs and ultimately gross profit dollars. This transformation has been very successful for us, and in this quarter, we reported that 30% of our revenue came from those activities. This type of revenue was much less significant for us before we began going down this path.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Through our investment in differentiated technology, we have positioned ourselves as a leader in the field of infrared optics, with an exclusive license from the government to commercialize new materials developed at the Naval Research Lab, as well as our partnership with the Department of Defense Defense Logistics Agency, with the goal of replacing germanium in DOD applications. We are not only the go-to partner for anyone looking to phase out germanium, but have also earned ourselves a seat at the table at some of the most important discussions and projects in today's defense world. Four years ago, we could only have dreamt of being in such a position. Naturally, since these are defense programs we're talking about, we're a bit limited in what we can share, but we will try to share as much as possible.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Recently, the DOD, via Defense Logistics Agency Strategic Materials, has awarded us Phase Two funding to support the qualification of additional new Black Diamond chalcogenide glasses as a substitute to germanium. Phase One was significant success, resulting in the qualification of several new proprietary Black Diamond materials. These materials are now designed into multiple programs of record and demonstrate significant additional value beyond simply replacing germanium. In Phase Two, we will continue working with DLA to qualify additional Black Diamond glasses to be included in DOD systems. The validation this represents cannot be understated, as it directly translates to new defense programs that rely on our glass, for which we are the exclusive supplier of record. During the quarter, we also received an initial development contract from a new European defense customer for the use of Black Diamond glass in optical systems.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Additionally, we also received a follow-on order from a European defense customer for infrared assemblies for use in FPV, that is, first-person view drone application. These orders are enabled by and are a validation of our recent efforts to obtain a European defense license and build capabilities at our Latvia facility, as well as highlight our growing recognition as a trusted supplier within NATO-aligned regions. As a reminder, more than 30% of our sales come from defense, most of those in the U.S. Obtaining the European defense license now opens the door for us to grow our defense business in Europe too, and those two recent wins are lead indicators to the success of this strategy. We expect to see significant growth coming from this market, the European defense market, and some customers that are potentially turning into 10% customers.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

In addition to our investment in materials and differentiating technologies, we have also invested in the development of our camera technologies. Just over a year ago, we completed the acquisition of Visimid Technologies, integrating their expertise with our proprietary materials to develop advanced thermal cameras and imaging systems. We have now built a portfolio of unique thermal cameras that have created a strong entry point for us in the system-level product and enables us to carve out a market share in a market estimated to be $9 billion of TAM and growing rapidly. Our efforts in the camera business, our first pillar of growth, are focused around LightPath's unique camera solutions. This started with the introduction of MANTIS, an innovative broadband or multispectral infrared camera that is a first of its kind and enabled purely by our unique materials from NRL.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

MANTIS opened doors with several high-profile customers, establishing our reputation for producing cameras that are not only groundbreaking in design but also practical for applications in harsh and high-sensitivity environments, and with a price tag of $30,000, we're positioned as industry leaders from a cost-to-performance perspective. This is significant for future growth of the company, as selling hundreds of cameras at $30,000 each has a completely different math to our top-line growth than selling just the lenses that go into those cameras, which can cost about as little as a cup of coffee, which used to be our business model prior to this transformation. In addition, we recently launched our new optical gas imaging camera platform to detect fugitive gas emissions for the oil and gas industry. The new OGI camera is specialized technology using infrared cameras to detect and visualize gas emitted, such as methane, in industrial settings.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

OGI cameras are capable of visualizing gas that are invisible to the naked eye by detecting the infrared energy absorbed or emitted by those gases. The topic is of extreme importance to the oil and gas industry, both in the U.S. and Europe, following new regulation curbing those emissions and imposing high penalties on operators. LightPath's purpose-built OGI camera leverages a non-germanium lens to improve upon current technologies by offering a cost-effective, higher-sensitivity, and ultimately more effective solution. This OGI technology applies to other sectors as well, where we see the opportunity to launch additional incremental products leveraging our know-how, all without incurring significant development expenses. On the government and defense side of the business, our second pillar, we've seen traction pick up significantly. Similar to the materials technology differentiators that already landed us one program of record, our technology differentiator has landed us the Lockheed Martin missile program.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Under this program, we are developing a new camera system for Lockheed Martin that will be part of a missile system. Due to pressing needs from the Army, the customer, the program is now on a very accelerated timeline. Though it started only a year ago, we have already achieved airworthy qualification of our subsystem and can begin shipping units for flight tests, which the team is currently working on. The Lockheed Martin program is potentially transformative for LightPath. Not only is it exactly the type of business we were targeting in our new strategy, but the size of this opportunity can completely transform us. If Lockheed Martin wins against Raytheon, which they are competing against, we could expect to see revenues of between $50 million-$100 million a year once in full production.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Though we are still in development, the progress of this project is so fast that Lockheed and the customer are already looking to start setting up for low-rate initial production next year, which is the last step before full production. For a company our size, with $35 million or so in revenue, a contract like this could completely transform us. And although there is a possibility that Lockheed will not win against Raytheon, we know that this technology we developed is so transformative and important that the same customer is already integrating it into at least two additional programs. I'll now turn to our third pillar of growth, which is new commercial applications such as automotive. As those that follow us know, LightPath has been working with several Tier One and Tier Two automotive OEMs to develop and qualify thermal imaging solutions for use in ADAS.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Per a new mandate set by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, by 2029, all new cars should include an emergency braking system that can identify pedestrians in pitch-dark conditions from a certain distance. To achieve that, it appears that thermal imaging is going to be adopted into every new car, which means a significant addressable market opportunity. Ahead of those upcoming catalysts, we begin to strengthen our operational capabilities to support future growth. Subsequent to quarter end, we welcomed Steve Garcia as General Manager of our Orlando manufacturing facility. Steve brings extensive operational experience in high-growth environments, and he will play a vital role in scaling our production processes to meet the increasing demand of our products, particularly for defense and industrial applications. His addition enhances our ability to support large mission-critical programs while maintaining our commitment to quality and innovation.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Now, I'd like to turn the call over to our CFO, Al Miranda, to talk about our first quarter fiscal financial results. Al, please go ahead.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, Sam. I will keep my review to a very succinct highlight of the financials this quarter. As a reminder, much of the information we're discussing during this call was also included in our press release issued earlier today and will be included in the 10-Q for the period. I encourage you to visit our website to access these documents. Revenue for the first quarter of fiscal 2025 increased 4% to $8.4 million as compared to $8.1 million in the same year-ago quarter. Sales of infrared components were $2.6 million, or 31% of the company's consolidated revenue. Revenue from visible components was $3.3 million, or 39%.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Revenue from assemblies and modules were $1.1 million, or 13%, and revenue from engineering services was $1.4 million, or 17%. Gross profit increased 22% to $2.8 million, or 34% of total revenues in the first quarter of 2025, as compared to $2.3 million, or 29% of total revenues in the same year-ago quarter. The increase in gross margin as a percentage of revenue was primarily driven by a more favorable product mix weighted towards visible component sales and assemblies and modules, which typically have higher gross margins than infrared components. Operating expenses increased 23% to $3.3 million for the first quarter of fiscal 2025, as compared to approximately $2.7 million in the same year-ago quarter. The increase in operating expenses was primarily due to an increase in legal and consulting fees related to business development initiatives, as well as increases in sales and marketing spend to promote new products.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Net loss in the first quarter of fiscal 2025 totaled $1.6 million, or 4 cents per basic and diluted shares, as compared to $1.3 million, or 4 cents per basic and diluted share in the same year-ago quarter. The increase in net loss was primarily attributable to higher legal and consulting expenses related to business development initiatives. EBITDA loss, a non-GAAP term, for the quarter ended September 30, 2024, was approximately $0.5 million compared to a loss of $0.4 million for the same period of the prior fiscal year. The decrease in EBITDA in the first quarter of fiscal 2025 was primarily attributable to the previously mentioned additional legal and consulting expenses related to business development initiatives. Cash and cash equivalents as of September 30, 2024, totaled $4.3 million, as compared to $3.5 million as of June 30, 2024.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

As of September 30, 2024, total debt stood at $3.9 million, and backlog totaled $21 million. In closing, I view our performance in Q1 as a strong indicator of the solid footing and growth trajectory of LightPath. Financial results underscore the progress of our strategic investments with positive impacts on revenue, margin improvements, and steady pipeline. We remain focused on executing this strategy with discipline and delivering value to our shareholders as we scale and grow. With that, I will turn the call back to Sam for some closing remarks.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time today to attend our call. Looking ahead, we will continue to drive the future of imaging as seen through our proprietary Black Diamond optics, leveraging our clear advantage in capabilities as compared to legacy germanium-based solutions.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

With defined catalysts in the automotive, defense, and camera solutions market, I have never been more confident in our path ahead. As we move into 2025, our team firmly believes that we are well-positioned to continue our transformation and build sustainable value for our shareholders over the long term. With that, I'll turn the call over to the operator to begin the question and answer session. Operator.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Should you have a question, please press star, followed by one on your touch-tone phone. You will hear a prompt that your hand has been raised. Should you wish to decline from the polling process, please press star, followed by two. If you're using a speakerphone, please lift the handset before pressing any keys. First question comes from Jaeson Schmidt with Lake Street Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Jaeson Schmidt
Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets

Hey, guys.

Jaeson Schmidt
Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets

Thanks for taking my questions, and congrats on the strong results. I want to start with the European market because it sounds like you guys are seeing some pretty significant traction there. Sam, just want to clarify your comments on some of these customers maybe eclipsing that 10% threshold. Did you provide a timeline on when that could occur?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. Good to hear from you, and thanks for the question. I think the European defense market, unfortunately, has timelines similar to the U.S. defense market, maybe sometimes a little bit faster. So when we talk, for example, about large programs, it's pretty much the same cycle as in the U.S.: initial development, prototypes, low-weight initial production, and then into production, which can often be two years or so. Most of the time, we report about it when we're already well into the program.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So naturally, we don't report about it when we just get an inquiry or start working on it. So I'd say in most cases, it's up to one year from the moment we report about it until we start seeing some real production-level orders. The FPV drone might be the exception there, where it is actually something where it is not one of those large defense programs that has to go through enormous qualification. It's actually more of those technologies where armies around the world are trying to move faster and adopt commercial solutions to be able to get them in faster. So the FPV might turn into revenue or is turning into revenue much faster.

Jaeson Schmidt
Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets

Okay. Great. And is the sales team and sales channel in that market fully built out, or do you still need some work there?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

I'd say we have a pretty strong sales team there.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Maybe there's some sales channels where in the defense part, in certain countries, we need local partners. So even though E.U. is the E.U. and spending within the E.U. and our defense license covers the entire E.U., certain countries want to do more local purchasing or want you to have a local partner. So there could be countries where we'll be signing up distributors. It could be countries outside the E.U., such as Turkey and the U.K., where we will need distributors just because of the way things are there.

Jaeson Schmidt
Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets

Okay. That makes sense. And last one from me, and I'll jump back into Q. Any update on how you're thinking about the timeline for the Lockheed decision?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No significant changes on our side.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

I mean, as we said, we received the airworthy requalification, which we're very proud of, and I'm immensely proud of the team in Texas for everything they've done there. We're building flight-worthy units right now, and the timeline is fluid, but we're still hoping to get some indications around the coming September, October timeframe.

Jaeson Schmidt
Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets

Perfect. Thanks a lot, guys.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from Glenn Mattson with Ladenburg Thalmann. Please go ahead.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Hi. Thanks for taking the question, and congrats on the results. The top line was a little better than I expected. Curious, as it comes to kind of the camera business, the assemblies and modules, in my projections, I have kind of a strong back half kind of built on the sales funnel, having grown from all these new products and the efforts you're making. Is that still reasonable?

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Do you still feel like that channel, that funnel, is building and that you're seeing a good response from the customer set there?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah, definitely. I'd say the camera business is one that, for the most part, can move faster to translate into revenue. A lot of it is from the industrial commercial space, so furnaces and high-temperature process monitoring. So with them, it's more driven by their budget cycles. So come end of year now, there's some end-of-year spending, but we suspect most of it is going into next year's budgets, which means January to June, we'll be seeing a lot of those orders and deliveries. Even on the defense side of cameras, it is more of a faster cycle than some of the large defense programs, with the exception, of course, of the Lockheed project, which is a very, very customized long-term project.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Even when we're providing cameras, say, to drones and so on, the turnaround cycles are very fast. The DOD is making tremendous efforts to adopt commercial technologies, the dual-use technologies, faster, and we're gaining from that. So we're benefiting from that well.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Great. And maybe I missed it on multiple calls, but in the past, you've mentioned the other defense program that you're working on. I believe it's like a helicopter, Apache, maybe a helicopter application. Is there an update there that you could share?

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

We're working on the initial prototypes. Small delays, but nothing major. So I'd say the team is doing very well there.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Great. But no significant update.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Sorry. Go ahead, Sam.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No, I was going to say no significant update, unfortunately.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Yep. And then there's a second quarter in a row you mentioned two additional programs with Lockheed.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Is there any color you can give further in terms of timeline or?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So these programs, actually, we don't know that much about them. We don't always know the full details of the programs, but we know we're with the same groups at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. They're earlier stage than the large missile program, and they will not be as high a volume as that. But they're moving along, and we feel confident that Lockheed is really looking at that as the ultimate solution for those programs.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Great. Thank you. Last one for me. I know this is not really a fair question. I know it's been two days, but geopolitics, there's the new administration is maybe tough on China, maybe a little more friendly with Russia. There's the two sources of germanium.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Can you just talk about if there's any initial thoughts as to what it all means for you guys?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

I don't expect that to impact the germanium part as much. I mean, Russia is still going to be, I'm assuming, still going to be sanctioned, and China is still going to try and use germanium as the leverage in trading. So I don't expect or foresee we're not planning on any significant changes there. We've already, just as a reminder, proactively significantly reduced our exposure to germanium by canceling a few multi-million-dollar orders a year and a half ago or so. So we already took actions towards that. I think, if anything, the results of the election might increase some defense spending around the world, and defense now is close to going to be 50% of our business at some point. So that's probably good for us.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Right.

Glenn Mattson
Glenn Mattson
Analyst at Ladenburg

Right. Okay. Thanks, Sam.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you.

Operator

Next question comes from Scott Buck with H.C. Wainwright, right? Please go ahead.

Scott Buck
Scott Buck
Analyst at HC Wainwright

Hi. Good afternoon, guys. Thanks for taking my questions. I think I saw you reached a qualification milestone with Lockheed in the quarter. Is there revenue attached to that that was in the $8.4 million?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Not specific to the qualification milestone. We recognize Lockheed revenue throughout the quarter. Did we have?

Company Representative at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. Not so much.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

What's that?

Company Representative at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. We did.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Oh, sorry. We did have some revenues there. That shows in the engineering services group?

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Yes. It's in engineering services, Scott.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Okay. It doesn't sound like it was a huge number.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

It was about $1 million. Yeah. It was about $1 million.

Scott Buck
Scott Buck
Analyst at HC Wainwright

Okay. Okay. Great. Appreciate that. And then second, on some of these larger potential wins, and I'm thinking Lockheed specifically, but we can broaden it out.

Scott Buck
Scott Buck
Analyst at HC Wainwright

How should we think about the gross margin on those opportunities versus kind of today's consolidated margin?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So those are government programs, and there's government accounting associated to them. So government dictates the gross margin pretty much as I think it's something like 25%, but their baseline of 25% of what is sort of includes management fees, SG&A, and so on. So it's probably a bit too early to translate it into what it would look like in our gross margins, but my rough guess, Al, somewhere between 30%-40%.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Absolutely. Definitely between 30%-40%.

Scott Buck
Scott Buck
Analyst at HC Wainwright

Okay. Perfect. Well, that's it for me, guys. I appreciate the time. Thank you.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you.

Operator

Your next question comes from Brian Kinstlinger with Alliance Global Partners. Please go ahead.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Great. Thanks. I got a couple of questions.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Did I hear correctly, now that you've got multiple cameras, you think adoption begins to pick up and orders begin to pick up about 12 to 18 months from now? Is that how I understood your response to one of those questions?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No. I meant that January of this year, on the commercial industrial side, when new budgets of those power plants and utilities and so on come into effect on January 1st, we know for a fact that we have quite a few customers that have budgeted our cameras into their next year, meaning calendar 2025. So we expect over the next seven to eight months to start seeing a pickup in that.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Is there any way to quantify what that I mean, is that 10% of revenue, do you think? 20% of revenue? I mean, how do you think, given those ticket sizes?

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Is there any way to quantify it, or?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. I'd say, look, so if we look at the product groups of assemblies and engineering services sort of bundled together, that has gone up to about 30% of our revenue in this quarter. I could definitely see that going up to as much as 50% over the next few quarters.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Got it. Great, and then

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

this is our future and where the growth is coming from so far.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Maybe I'm drawing a blank. Maybe it was answered last quarter, so I apologize. That large customer that has gone away for you for now, are they still evaluating Black Diamond materials? And if so, is there a reasonable timeframe to expect adoption? Sorry if I forget to answer that.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No, you're absolutely right. We haven't spoken about it in a while.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Actually, I was at that customer a couple of weeks ago, and working out a plan with them on both getting Black Diamond into their systems to replace germanium. They have not yet done that, as well as a few other long-term strategic things we're working on together. So I'm very hopeful that that customer is going to come back, and we're going to win them back, and it's a very, very significant potential. As a reminder, that customer used to be anywhere between $4 million-$6 million a year for us. But from your comments, you're not quite that confident yet. You're still working on trying to get that done. So there's quite a bit that needs to be done on their side as well. We're working closely together, and I think for us, that's the most important part, that it's a very collaborative effort.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Yep. Okay.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

And then, how long do you expect phase two of the testing? I think it's with DLA. How long do you see that lasting? And then, is the next phase moving into production?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Well, production starts every time we qualify a material. So, BDNL-4 was qualified and is in production. BDNL-6 and BDNL-8, we actually have not announced them as qualified formally, but realistically, they are already embedded in a couple of programs of record. We just haven't done that in an official manner. But from DLA's point of view, that qualification has finished. The next six glasses, DLA is paying for the qualification. The project is defined to be up to 24 months, but we suspect it could be sooner than that.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Okay. Now, backlog is relatively flat year over year.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

However, I get the sense from you and Al's comments that you're confident that you're going to begin to grow revenue a little faster. Is that because some of these orders don't flow through backlog, so we'll never really see them in backlog? Just reconcile the flat backlog with the accelerated pace of growth, please.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. Definitely. So you're absolutely right. A lot of the camera business is what we'd call book and turn. We have sub-assemblies of them ready. We have modules, and we can turn a camera around and ship it within two to three weeks. And with unit prices of $10,000-$30,000 for the cameras, that can be pretty significant in some of the book and turn. In addition, I want to just remind, we're looking at the backlog. It's flat year over year.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Up until about a year ago, we had our sports gun sight companies, that same one we mentioned, in the backlog. Right about every November, they would come in with a renewal that was between $4 million-$6 million. So we're flat, quote unquote, without what used to be a $4 million-$6 million customer. So it is actually a growth of all the other businesses outside that customer.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Can you remind me when that customer last made that order so we can kind of take a look at that?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So about a year ago, I think about a year ago is when we—

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

that was their last order.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No. About a year ago, we canceled the germanium and did not renew it.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Right. So the order fell off. About a year ago.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So the flat backlog doesn't reflect either side, probably, of that order.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

There is a little bit of that. There was probably $1.5 million left in there from previous orders.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Got it. Yeah. My last question is, yeah. As you look at the backlog, two questions for that, which is the non-basically camera business. How much of that generally gets recognized in 12 months? And the second part of the question is, how do you see the mix of products in terms of margin profile or product? Can you kind of give us any direction on that?

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

So most of the backlog ages out in 12- to 15-month timeframes. We don't have a lot, Brian, that goes past 15 months on the backlog.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Great. In terms of the mix, maybe, is my last question.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

The mix is more heavily weighted towards sort of the visible components and some of the visible infrared components, the component business, and some of the simple assemblies like doublets. For the bigger things, like Sam's talking about the cameras, we will get, at best, a three-month order.

Brian Kinstlinger
Brian Kinstlinger
Analyst at Alliance Global Partners

Great. Thanks so much, guys.

Operator

Your next question comes from Orin Hirschman with AIGH Investment Partners. Please go ahead.

Orin Hirschman
Managing Member and CIO at AIGH Investment Partners

Hi. Congratulations on the progress. I just want to hear more about the go-to market for the infrared industrial cameras and the timing and if you've seen any early traction, even if they're not huge dollars, but multiple orders.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah. Definitely. So the go-to market strategy has changed or evolved roughly half a year ago when we were joined with Jason Messerschmidt that came from FLIR.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Jason was in charge of all North American sales at FLIR, a few hundred million. He's a very heavyweight in the world of cameras and has really developed a go-to market strategy and team here. That included recruiting a couple of people to that, both from FLIR and from other industrial applications, people that live and breathe that oil and gas. And sorry, no pun intended about breathing the oil and gas, but they know that world inside out. In fact, actually, we just finished today a one-day session on the go-to market strategy for the next few weeks. Traction, because of that, is much faster than what we're used to.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Meaning, when we announce a product like the methane detection cameras that we announced three weeks ago, that is already after Jason Messerschmidt and Rich and Chris and the go-to market team that focuses on that segment have already been at customer sites testing and validating it. So most of the time, by the time we announce a new product in the oil and gas, it has already some customers behind it. Now, from there, going and scaling it up is much easier because most of those times, those customers are distributors or integrators that then cover a specific geography or area. So, for example, the first furnace cameras that we shipped out were to an integrator in the Southeast that we know has already quite a number of orders coming right as soon as their customer's capital budget goes into effect on January 1st.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

So I think this is something we're very positive on. We're able to move into large chunks of revenue much faster when it comes to those cameras once we've already validated them at a customer.

Orin Hirschman
Managing Member and CIO at AIGH Investment Partners

Agree. Hey, thanks very much.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you.

Operator

Next question comes from Gene Inger with IngerLetter.com. Please go ahead.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Hi, Sam and Al. Keeping up the good work. And of course, we're all looking forward to what happens with Lockheed in the next year or so. May I ask you guys, I don't know if you can say specifically if you're involved with the sustainment $200 million contract for Project Longbow. You probably know what that is related to the Apache or AH-64, but that's also with Northrop Grumman, not Lockheed. Does that involve you guys?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Yeah.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

First of all, a lot of those programs, the Apache modernization being one of them, there is one lead prime, but then could be multiple other subprimes. So I can't comment specifically on this prime or that prime. But I would say that every time there's a project that talks about modernization of an existing platform, like the Apache in this example, you can assume that a big part of the modernization is bringing the electro-optic systems up to speed. And actually, if you look at the DOD budget, the modernization of the Apache actually has a line item there that talks about the electro-optic system. So I'd leave it at that.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Okay. I know also Poland is buying 70 of them, and the Netherlands has been okayed to have this new fire control target acquisition radar system.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

So I was wondering if that provides incremental additional business for you guys. I hope that it does. And whether it does for Latvia, or would this be just Orlando-made materials?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Okay. So two parts to that. First of all, it will, but it will in the long term. The way it works with those programs is that the foreign sales, the foreign customers get any upgrade like this well after the U.S. So if we are working on such a program, I would say we would be providing it for at least five years to the U.S. helicopters before it made its way to any of the foreign customers as friendly as they are.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Without trying to be nosy, I had a, oh, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You were not finished. I'm sorry.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

No, please go ahead. It's fine.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Okay.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

The reason I brought up helicopters. I'm concerned that as we go into laser warfare and especially intercepting drones, that's going to become increasingly something that countries are looking at. Although I don't know, you might know the answer, how they can move lasers because the drones and incoming missiles these days can be maneuvered, and typically a laser shoots in a straight line. But with that said, a helicopter is not a really great platform in terms of it has vulnerability. So I'm wondering whether your lenses and your glass can be coated, for example, in some way that it will deflect or reflect laser and provide a countermeasure in and of itself to laser beams.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Well, I can't comment on a specific technology like that.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

I would say if our lenses or anything would deflect the lasers, it would also deflect other parts of the light spectrum and therefore making that helicopter actually more visible than the customer or user would wish for it to be, so I'm not sure if that specifically would happen, but I just want to circle back to the second half of your previous question regarding Latvia. Specifically, if we would provide any systems that then go into Apache that then get upgraded to Europe, they would still go through the U.S. It would always be built in the U.S. and shipped out to the customers, and Latvia does not play a role in that.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Apologies if I got too detailed, and my final question would be regarding space, which you haven't mentioned.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

I've also been seeing that there are new developments which are focused on collision avoidance of debris or satellites or defensive measures if one of our satellites is being targeted, such as an effort to disrupt communications. You have acknowledged that you're involved in space communications, whether it's Starlink or somebody else. And I'm wondering whether the new approach of basically LIDAR in space to give proximity and manage space better, which is called management, has involved you guys?

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

I'm not aware of us being directly involved in that, but it's very possible that through one of our LIDAR customers, we are. We work with multiple different companies that work on LIDAR, automotive, and other LIDARs. So we might be indirectly involved in it, but I'm not familiar with that.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Anyway, I look forward to hopefully a successful year.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Sam, you and Al, you've done a tremendous job of changing around necessarily the direction of the company, and I welcome that.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, Gene. Good to see you.

Al Miranda
Al Miranda
CFO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, Gene.

Gene Inger
Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com

Thank you.

Operator

There are no further questions. Please continue.

Sam Rubin
Sam Rubin
CEO at LightPath Technologies

Thank you, operator. And thank you again to each of you for joining us on today's earnings conference call. We look forward to continuing to update you on our progress and great results, and we strive to deliver value to our valued shareholders. Thank you and goodbye.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

Executives
    • Sam Rubin
      Sam Rubin
      CEO
    • Al Miranda
      Al Miranda
      CFO
    • Company Representative
Analysts
    • Jaeson Schmidt
      Analyst at Lake Street Capital Markets
    • Glenn Mattson
      Analyst at Ladenburg
    • Scott Buck
      Analyst at HC Wainwright
    • Brian Kinstlinger
      Analyst at Alliance Global Partners
    • Orin Hirschman
      Managing Member and CIO at AIGH Investment Partners
    • Gene Inger
      Publisher and Chief Market Strategist at IngerLetter.com
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