Kimberly-Clark Q4 2022 Earnings Call Transcript


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Participants

Corporate Executives

  • Christina Cheng
    Senior Vice President, Investor Relations
  • Michael D. Hsu
    Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
  • Nelson Urdaneta
    Chief Financial Officer

Analysts

Presentation

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience in holding. We now have your presenters in conference. [Operator Instructions]

It is now my pleasure to introduce today's first presenter, Christina Cheng.

Christina Cheng
Senior Vice President, Investor Relations at Kimberly-Clark

Thanks, Shelby. Hello and welcome to our 2022 year-end earnings conference call. Joining us today are Mike Hsu, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; Nelson Urdaneta, our Chief Financial Officer; and Brian Ezzell, our VP of Finance.

We issued our press release and published supplemental materials that summarize our results and outlook this morning. You can find these resources in the event page of our Investor Relations website. Before we begin today, a few reminders. Statements will include forward -- our statements today will include forward-looking statements. Please refer to the latest Form 10-K or 10-Q for a list of factors that could cause our actual results to differ materially from expectations. Our remarks will focus on adjusted results, which will exclude certain items described in our Q4 2022 earnings news release. Please consult our press release and public filings for more information about these adjustments and reconciliation to comparable GAAP financial measures. Mike will provide his perspective of the business and then we will open the floor for a Q&A.

With that, let me turn it over to Mike.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thank you, Christina, and welcome to KC. Good morning, and thank you all for joining us today.

Back when we introduced our strategy in 2019, we could not have imagined the unprecedented challenges we are about to face. Over the past four years, KCers did what we do best, provide great care, care that our consumers, our customers, our employees and our communities needed all around the world. At the peak of the pandemic, people counted on our brands to support the health and hygiene of their families, and I'm proud of what our teams were able to achieve to fulfill our purpose of Better Care for a Better World.

Now, as we look back at our results, there are three things I'd like to emphasize. Theme number one, our strategy to accelerate growth is working. Since 2019, we've grown our business by about $1.5 billion in sales and delivered 4% average organic sales growth. In that time, we've accelerated organic growth by improving our product offering and market positions, with meaningful innovation and world-class commercial execution. In 2022, organic sales increased by 7% and over delivery on our goals at the beginning of the year. This was achieved in what turned out to be a uniquely challenging global environment.

2022 also marked Kimberly Clark's 150th anniversary, a year in which we celebrated generations of category-defining innovation. We're proud to have created many of our categories including feminine care and facial tissue under the leadership of our Kotex and Kleenex brands. We are inventors at heart. New products created during the last three years contributed to over 60% of our organic growth in 2022. Whether it's Kotex DreamWear for ultimate overnight protection or Kleenex Allergy Comfort, our product obsession, advantage technology and consumer-centric focus is enabling us to create meaningful value and accelerate category growth. This is perhaps most evident in China, where we continue to post double-digit organic growth in the face of a declining birth rate and challenging COVID operating conditions. With major upgrades in dryness and thinness, our products are among the best in the market, led by Huggies Super Deluxe, the softest diaper in China. Our strong portfolio, supported by superior technology will continue to anchor Kimberly Clark's leadership in the world's largest baby and child care market.

Theme number two, we're making strong progress on margin recovery. Over the past two years, we faced unprecedented inflation worth over $3 billion, a roughly 1,500 basis point headwind to gross margin. Our teams have done an excellent job mitigating this impact. Our product leadership, commercial agility and cost discipline enabled us to rapidly implement broad pricing actions and generate over $700 million in cost savings. The successful implementation of revenue growth management actions drove an inflection in our profitability in the second half of the year. Gross margin stabilized in Q3 and increased year-over-Year in Q4 by over 200 basis points. This was our first major improvement in the last eight quarters. Collectively, these actions enabled us to fully offset inflation and currency headwinds in 2022 on a dollar basis.

Recently, market prices of some inputs have begun to ease, although they remain elevated relative to pre-pandemic levels. While we're encouraged by this, it will take time for these benefits to work through our contracts and flow through the P&L. Nevertheless, we will continue to leverage our scale to improve efficiency and reduce costs. At the same time, we expect our revenue management efforts will continue to positively impact this year. This will aid ongoing gross margin recovery, while also enabling us to continue investing in our business. At the midpoint of our 2023 guidance range, we plan to improve operating margin by approximately 80 basis points. With incremental headwinds below the line, this translates to 2% to 6% growth in earnings per share in 2023. We also intend to increase our dividend for the 51st consecutive year.

Theme number three, we will continue to invest to drive balanced and sustainable growth. We're scaling innovation that delivers better value, more benefits and better care for our consumers. We continue to see strong demand for great performing products. New Poise ultra thins and expanded sizing for Depend drove share gains in adult care, both from a dollar and unit standpoint this past year in North America. We'll be launching several exciting initiatives in 2023, including our GoodNites Youth Pant, which can hold the equivalent of three bottles of water! as well as exciting performance upgrades for Huggies diapers. At the same time, we'll leverage the broad range of our offering to address the growing need for value through compelling commercial programs.

Now to wrap up my prepared remarks. I'm very proud of KCers around the world. They continue to execute with excellence, standing tall in the face of countless challenges, all to fulfill our purpose of Better Care for a Better World. We've assembled an excellent management team that has tremendous experience unlocking global growth. We have a long runway of growth ahead of us and we'll continue to invest in balanced and sustainable growth to create long-term value for our shareholders.

Now, Shelby, if you wouldn't mind, let's open the line for questions.

Questions and Answers

Operator

At this time, we will open the floor for questions. [Operator Instructions]

We'll take our first question Dara Mohsenian from Morgan Stanley.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Good morning, Dara.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hey, Dara.

Dara Mohsenian
Analyst at Morgan Stanley

Hey, how are you?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Good.

Dara Mohsenian
Analyst at Morgan Stanley

So, I just wanted to go into the 2023 outlook in a little more detail. First, Mike, can you just outline what you're assuming for pulp prices as you look out to next year? I'm assuming you're not fully using the RISI forecast, but maybe you are, just any clarity there would be helpful. And then you talked about the greater investment in growth of people by 100 basis points to margin. Can you just help us understand the motivation behind that? Are there specific areas of opportunity? Is it more you have to pull-back a little bit in 2022, just given such a tough commodity environment, how are you sort of thinking about that? And also maybe just a little more detail on functionally where you're spending, is that ad spend or is that other areas, is it headcount and maybe geographies and product categories you plan to invest? So, that'd be helpful. Thanks.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. We'll do to it, Dara. First of all, I feel great about where the brands are globally and where our business is and we can talk about the performance in the fourth quarter and I know we'll get to that. But overall, I'd say, we plan to deliver a better performance in 2023 for sure. We're going to build on our organic growth momentum. Dara, clearly, in the plan for next year, there is plenty of carryover pricing, but there are new pricing actions in the plan as well. Most of those have already been announced to our customers.

But in terms of the investment, I would say, I'm really excited. We got a robust innovation and commercial program for 2003. In some ways, if I calibrate, I think, it's -- this year will be stronger than last year and we feel good about that. Consumer demand in our categories, generally, remains very resilient. And so, I think, from that aspect, we have good things to invest in.

In terms of the overall spending, we are taking advertising backup a little bit more. Just for reference, and -- we haven't discussed as much. But obviously, with the challenges that we've had over the last couple of years, we had pulled back slightly in -- over the last couple of years, but -- and so, some of this is returning back to where we were back in -- perhaps back in 2020. But beyond that, I'd say, it's more based on the merits of the commercial programs that we have. And we're excited about the programs that we have and we want to invest behind them.

And at this point, you're probably aware, Dara, we're pretty good at evaluating the returns of our investments and making sure that they payout. And so, we feel great about that. And so, from the organic momentum, we continue to see that, I will say, we expect continued progress on margin recovery while we're making that investment. We've got high-single digit operating profit growth while offsetting, I think, what we said in our release, about $600 million in inflation and FX headwinds. And so, yeah, we are restoring some between the lines. But obviously, as you saw the non-operating items, really, kind of get us back to that mid-single digit EPS guide or low-to mid-single digit EPS guide.

So, I will say, and -- before I let Nelson -- Nelson will comment on the pulp. I'll say, Dara, we are aiming for the top of our range internally, right? And I think we did the same thing last year. I'm glad we did, because when we came out this time last year, I think, we are calling for about $700 million of cost inflation, we ended up seeing closer to the $1.7 billion and still stayed within our original range. As I mentioned, we have very high quality plans for this year, we're really excited about that. So, we're aiming for the top-end of the range. Why we're calling it the way we are is, volatility remains extraordinarily high. And so, if you have a good call on interest rates, FX, the war, energy, supply chain, COVID, civil unrest, there's a lot going on.

So, that's a mouthful. Maybe, I'll pause and let Nelson comment on pulp. And then, Dara, if you have any follow ups?

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. And to add, Dara, in terms of pulp and the fiber complex as a whole, I think, just to give a little bit of context of where we're at. Overall, the fiber market prices have plateaued in Q3 and they actually began to turn slightly in Q4. And to your question as to do we take RISI as a reference, yes, we take it as a reference. And -- just reiterating where we're at today, prices have more or less remained largely in line with where we were in Q3, and what we're projecting into this year, is that on average, eucalyptus as an example would be down 10% for the full year.

Now, same goes for fluff and NBSK and some of the other components of the whole fiber complex, we would see prices begin to ease throughout 2023. One thing that we need to take into account is that we don't cover at RISI. I mean, we actually enter into specific contracts in all the different components of fiber. So, what you see in RISI or some of these indexes does not necessarily translate one-to-one, at that time to our P&L. So, that's also what's playing out.

To give you a context out-of-the commodity inflation of $200 million to $300 million that we're quoting in our guidance, the pulp complex as a whole is right around half of that at the midpoint. So, we will see pulp as a whole be up for us in 2023 based on what we're forecasting at this stage, albeit a very small number compared to what we've seen before and markets are giving up on that end.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

The thing I'll add, Dara, is also -- while it will take -- some of those declines that you see in RISI will take a little time to work through our system. I would say if you saw a spot and what we're paying, you'd want to pay what we're paying.

Dara Mohsenian
Analyst at Morgan Stanley

Great, that's helpful. And just one quick follow-up on the higher ad spend. Are there specific geographies or product categories you're most focused on, Mike? And then if I can slip one additional question in, also just the FX guidance for 2023, the revenue guidance is worse than our currency models indicate, based on your country exposure. So, just any clarity there would be helpful. But also the flow-through to profit look pretty severe in terms of the FX impact to profit relative to revenue. So, any clarity there would be helpful. Thanks.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. The spending, I would say, it's broad improvements. I mean, certainly, in our major markets like the US and the diaper category for sure, we have great news that we want to make sure that we're supporting appropriately. I think I cannot share exactly what that news is, because it's coming out in the second half, but it will blow your mind when you see it and it has to do with -- I -- not to say this on an earnings call, but the poop side of things. And so, that's kind of the business we're in, and so, we'll do miraculous things with poop. And so, that's one set of areas.

We've got a huge momentum in China and we feel great about that team is doing a fantastic job. We're going to continue to plow in and invest in the brand and the advertising, in our digital capabilities in China. And so, those are two core areas. But obviously, we have strong traction around the world and we feel good about our investments around the world.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

And addressing the question on the ForEx, Dara, just to unlock that a little bit. So, for next year on the top-line, we've said that for the full-year, we're talking around 2 percentage points of a drag. And it's important to highlight that we are seeing that concentrated in the first half of the year when we do the comps year-over-year. I mean, we would not -- we would see that really ease or not be that much of a headwind as we said -- as we get into the second-half from a top-line standpoint. So you could work that out in there.

And then when we go down to the flow through to the bottom-line, I -- couple of things. As a reminder, we've got about half of our revenue coming from overseas and about a third of our profit coming from overseas, but we do have a significant amount of costs that impact the P&L. They're exposed to hard currencies in the foreign subs in which we operate. The other element you need to take into account as you model is that we're not covering that spot rates. I mean we have particular risk management strategies in place that -- I'm not go into -- get into details in the call, but we have to work through those risk management strategies as they flow-through the P&L. And as you know, that's not a one-to-one if you are engaging in hedging and doing risk management, the strategies that we do.

Dara Mohsenian
Analyst at Morgan Stanley

Great. Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thanks, Dara.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Chris Carey with Wells Fargo.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Good morning, Chris.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Chris.

Christopher Carey
Analyst at Wells Fargo Securities

Hi, good morning. I just -- so, one follow-up on the currency piece, and then another question. But just on the currency piece, I think, it's getting so much attention this morning, because it's such an atypical multiplier versus what we've seen here, right? And so, I appreciate there's hedging and that sounds like that's something you have good difficulty into. So, maybe I'll take that as a given, and what -- how should we think about an improvement in currency or worsening in currency? So, you're hedged, does this now -- is this now the outlook or should changes in currency imply a change and what's going to be flowing through on your model this year? So, perhaps you can just help us understand that.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. That's a fair question, Chris. And couple of things. Obviously, on topline, it will be what it will, because we don't hedge topline. So, that's an essence. What's going to happen is, it will translate. When you go to costs, we have models in place for risk management strategies and there are currencies we hedge, there are currencies we don't hedge. And it depends on the amounts we do. So, it's model-driven. So, changes in currency, to your question, would have impacts. Now, it won't apply to all the currency pairs, because it depends on where we're at in any given point in time.

So, definitely on topline, yes, we will see that very fluid as markets move and that's happening literally on the hour. As to profits, we will also see to some extent some flow, as the currency changes and we update our models, depending on what's hedged and what's not hedged.

Christopher Carey
Analyst at Wells Fargo Securities

Okay. Thank you. Just given -- I think one other thing this morning is that the commodity outlook relative to what we can see -- on even forward prices would suggest worse than expected probably on that front. Clearly, you're saying more of that's happening in international markets, maybe harder to track. So, I think that makes sense. But nevertheless, we'll probably end the year now at a gross margin, of say, 32%. So, a few hundred basis points below pre-pandemic. Operating margins, even farther below pre-pandemic.

And I think conceptually, the organization does have the goal to get back to that margin structure. It just feels like with commodity volatility and the non-operating inflation that you're talking about, do you still think that's a realistic medium- to long-term objective or has the inflation been such that it's probably not enough pricing and savings to get there, or at least, it will take a very long time? Thanks for your thoughts on that.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah, Chris, I definitely feel like it's a realistic goal, and I think we'll get there. And my view is we've turned the corner on our margin recovery program. We -- obviously, we saw in the fourth quarter continued strong organic performance. But for the -- I said this in my prepared remarks, pricing exceeded input costs and inflation for the full year. So, we fully offset inflation and FX for the full year last year. So, I think the teams did a great job there. And our operating margin, as I said, stabilized in Q3 and expanded by 200 basis points in Q4.

In terms of the cost outlook, so I think we're making great progress there. And let me say this about costs. From my seat, I'll say there's -- I see green shoots, okay? But even though we still see cost headwinds coming into the year, there are green shoots, and we have seen selected commodities start to ease. And I'll also say, having been in this company for 10 years, reversion is around the corner. And when it happens, it happens fast. We offset extraordinary headwinds over the last couple of years, as I mentioned. We see another 600 this year. Historically, though, there has been rapid reversion, and we've seen some signs of it. I don't have a timetable for that. I don't know if it's going to hit this year or not. But at some point, it will happen. And when that does happen, it will accelerate our margin recovery.

And as I said in the past, we're not counting on reversion to deliver the margin recovery. But when it does, it will accelerate our timeline, which is why I feel confident about it, because we all know $3 billion over two years, it's not going to stay at that level, right? At some point, it's going to come back down.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

And just to add a little flavor on the gross margin, too, Chris. A couple of things. We had three quarters in a row where we actually expanded gross margin. And as Mike pointed out, for the first time in Q4, we grew gross margin year-over-year versus -- the last time we ever did that was back in mid-2020. So, it had been a few quarters that had not been the case. And that reinforces Mike's point that what we have been talking about since July of really remaining committed and having line of sight to recovery in the margins is going to happen.

As we stare at this year, our plan calls for year-over-year margin expansion in gross margin every quarter. That's what we have in place. I think you quoted 32% of gross margin, it's actually higher what we're aiming for at the -- for the full year, because we're expanding operating margins at the midpoint of our plan by 80 bps. If you look at what we put out in the release and the remarks, we're investing about 100 basis points of net sale into the brands. So, we got to add that back to that 80 bps, and that gives you a sense of what at least is going to be the gross margin expansion that we have planned in here.

So, we definitely have -- we're building on those green shoots that Mike saying, but we're not staying sitting here. I mean we're moving on the productivity line, we're moving on the margin accretive innovation, and we're also moving on the net revenue growth management programs that we have in place. all of that is really putting us there. And as Mike has said in the past, reversion will accelerate this. That's the only thing that would do that, so.

Christopher Carey
Analyst at Wells Fargo Securities

So, can I just confirm, and I apologize I've gotten questions on this, and I'm going to get back in the queue. Do you expect gross margins up, but the 100 basis points is what you're investing into gross margins? So, if you -- can you just maybe confirm what your expectation for price margin is for 2023, because I think there has been some confusion?

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah, I wanted to add, right. So, it would be like this. We have 80 basis points of operating margin. You add 100 basis points that we are reinvesting into the brands. That gives you 180 basis points by which at least gross margin would have to expand. Does that make sense?

Christopher Carey
Analyst at Wells Fargo Securities

Okay. Yeah. Thanks so much.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

That's the math.

Christopher Carey
Analyst at Wells Fargo Securities

Right. Thank you, both.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thanks, Chris.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Steve Powers with Deutsche Bank.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hello, Steve.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Steve.

Stephen Powers
Analyst at Deutsche Bank Research

Hello, good morning. Just to pick up on that math, because that's sort of the math that we're working with, too. But that implies, if you take the numbers literally, the 23% gross margin objective is a tick below the 4Q '22 gross margin that you realized. So, just to Nelson's point about seeing that progressive gross margin improvement sequentially, it doesn't imply a lot more movement in '23. So, maybe just talk about that in the context of, overtime, easing costs and the like?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

The road to margin recovery is a bumpy one, Chris -- or Steve.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

So, Steve, I think a few things that -- just to add a little bit of color or how we get there on the math. So, I think the important thing to take into account is we're staring right now at about $250 million of commodity costs at the midpoint, as we've guided. We have about -- in terms of currency, about $350 million at the midpoint in currency. And then in other costs, we have around $200 million. So when you add it all up, we will be for another year in a row, having a significant revenue growth management realization that we've planned for, which, by the way, around two-thirds of that is solely carryover from 2022.

So, what happens at the end is, for the year, we're going to be realizing positive pricing net of commodity and ForEx, whereas last year, we were pretty much neutral. We were able to fully offset the $1.7 billion. So, that's going to flow through. And exiting Q4, it's not a straight-line as Mike indicated, because, again, the quarters are pretty different and the dynamics between the categories and the mix and our cost impact us differs. But the reality is that on a year-over-year basis, we continue to expand margins, and it would be quite the game because if you recall, our pre-COVID gross margins were around 35%. So, we would be getting -- we would be making pretty good advance on the full-year with the movement that we're planning for.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah, Stephen, and maybe I'll just add for context, I mean, I wasn't trying to sound facetious, because when I say it's a bumpy road, I'm not one for hyperbole and I think I said in my prepared remarks, unprecedented a few times. And so, there's been unprecedented effects kind of on the demand side and on the supply side. Just in terms of demand, obviously, COVID in and out, the war, which caused demand to change in and out. Then you have all the supply issues either associated with COVID, the war or just the product availability or transportation availability. So, there's a lot of things moving around.

Then you throw in our Texas storm, which, at this point, I'm on the third order impact of the Texas storm. And so, you got all that. There's a lot of volatility inherent in the numbers, and they were not consistent quarter-to-quarter, and very unusual in our business because typically. I think, you all are right, this tends to be a very stable business. But because of that, both from a demand perspective and a cost perspective, things are going to move around from quarter-to-quarter a little bit.

Stephen Powers
Analyst at Deutsche Bank Research

Okay. That's fair. And I agree. Unprecedented has become the new precedent. So, two other, I guess, follow-ups, if I could. One is on the enhanced essentially net pricing, revenue growth management. I guess you talked about mostly carryover. That's great. That makes sense. In terms of the incremental, is -- do you anticipate incremental actual pricing actions versus just kind of other RGM actions? And you -- just some color around where those might occur and what portion of them are actually list price movements versus count reductions, that kind of thing would be helpful.

And then another thing that you mentioned in the release, it's been a topic across other companies that have been reporting just in terms of retail inventory levels and some downshifting in terms of trade inventory levels. Just some color around what you've seen and how you're thinking about destocking inventory levels across the trade as you go through '23? Thanks so much.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. Thanks, Steve. Yeah. First of all, we've moved fast on pricing all last -- the last couple of years, right? And so, I'm really proud of the team and their ability to fully offset inflation on a dollar basis in 2022. But for the plan this year, I would say the majority of our pricing is like -- is going to be carryover, but we have taken new actions, some list pricing, which is, in general, across most markets already been announced into the marketplaces. But there are additional RGM actions we've taken as well that you might say, whether it's promotional changes or productivity around trade spending. So those are the more typical that are kind of evergreen programs that we're going to have in place.

But overall, we feel very good about our RGM, our revenue growth management capability. It's executing well. If we didn't -- if we had not invested in it, over the past five years, we would not have been able to make the moves that we're making. And then in general, I think it's been working very, very well. In general, I would say demand is holding up pretty well. I know that will be a topic people will want to double-click on. But I would say the elasticities are holding up, in general, better than we modeled originally. So, that maybe, hopefully, that's it on the pricing one.

Any follow-up, Steve, on the pricing?

Stephen Powers
Analyst at Deutsche Bank Research

No, that's great. Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. And then retail inventory, it was interesting. Nelson and I were at a conference in September -- Lawrence conference in September and almost every investor asked us about retail inventories because it was starting to change for a couple manufacturers. It had not affected us at -- that was back in September. I would say subsequent to that meeting, perhaps a week or two afterwards, we started getting news from retailers that they were going to look at retail inventories as well in our categories. And it's happened. I would say it's been typical. Generally typical to kind of what we've experienced year-over-year.

So, in the fourth quarter, I'd say it came in about what we forecasted. It did affect the consumption because if you look at North America, I think our overall organic between tissue and personal care was up 1, which is a little soft relative to what the consumption was. And in my mind, consumption is really what the business is really performing at. And so, you're going to have some other changes that affect your shipments. But over the long term, shipments must equal consumption in my book. And so, consumption for the quarter was up 7% in Personal Care and 7% in Tissue. So, we feel like the business remains very healthy, but we worked through some typical retailer inventory issues.

Stephen Powers
Analyst at Deutsche Bank Research

Okay. Very good. Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thanks, Steve.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Anna Lizzul with Bank of America.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Good morning.

Anna Lizzul
Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Hi, morning. Thank you so much for the question.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Morning.

Anna Lizzul
Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch

I was wondering if you can comment from your guidance on why most of your inflation is outside of the U.S. in 2023, meaning what is different really in terms of the market outside of the U.S. in terms of rising costs? And then I have a follow-up.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. In general, inflation -- so, a couple of things. Out of the commodity inflation, the one we're quoting, the $200 million to $300 million impact, the majority of that bucket is on the international markets. So, the U.S. would be not the big -- the market largely impacted by that bucket. However, when we move down the line, obviously, ForEx would be most -- would be the international markets, as you could see. But then on the other costs, it's broad-based. So, that would be broad-based across the portfolio, Anna.

Anna Lizzul
Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Okay. And then just how should we think about the phasing of your FORCE cost savings through the year? Just given that rising input costs are more pronounced in the first half, should we expect greater cost savings to offset that in the first half as well?

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. As we've said in the past, Anna, the -- our FORCE savings are not linear. And they -- it all depends on movements within the quarters, go-lives to projects. And it is very difficult for us to predict exactly how it comes into play. I would not skew FORCE into the first part of the year because, typically, we've got a lot of projects that are going live. We're still dealing and managing through some challenges, especially internationally on the supply chain bid, and that weighs in into how FORCE plays throughout the year. But I can't give you a specific percentage of what you should be planning. But I hope that helps guide you as to how we're thinking about it.

Anna Lizzul
Analyst at Bank of America Merrill Lynch

Okay. Thanks very much.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thank you, Anna.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Thank you.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Andrea Teixeira with JPMorgan.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Andrea.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Andrea.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Good morning.

Andrea Teixeira
Analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Thank you. Good morning. How are you? So, I wanted to just perhaps hope to bridge the top-line guidance a bit between volume and pricing. And Nelson, I understand you mentioned, obviously, you have some carryover impact of about two-thirds, I think, you called out from pricing. So, it implies that potentially, you're announcing or embedding some additional pricing. So, first of all, I wanted to check on that. And by my math, probably you're embedding flattish to slightly up volume for 2023. So, I'm hoping to figure what regions would that be?

And related to that, from a regional perspective, D&E, it was a bit softer in the fourth quarter. I understand like you called out Southeast Asia, and I'm thinking -- and correct me if I'm wrong, Softex being an acquisition that you made towards the end of 2021. Perhaps there are some puts and takes there. Anything you can add in terms of like 2022 seems to me was a year that D&E had a very strong year and -- actually, sorry, developed markets had a very strong year. D&E was a little bit softer. Is that going to reverse because you're obviously having tougher comps in China and in developed markets. So, if you can help us with that?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Maybe, Andrea, I'll start with the D&E and then maybe Nelson, you can come back in on the -- on bridging the top-line. D&E, yeah, it did soften. So, in Q3, I think we were up about 11%, Andrea, and then it was plus 2% in the fourth quarter. I would say, as you already talked about, primarily due to what I would call discrete challenges in Southeast Asia. So, what we're doing is we're excited about our business in Indonesia. It's great business, great brand. I would say we're working through some business approaches that we prefer. And so, that's had an effect of the year. They did things in a certain way. I prefer to do them a different way. And so, we're just working through that, and that had an impact on sales kind of in the quarter. Hopefully, we're through that.

And then beyond Indonesia, we're seeing a little increased competition in Vietnam and India. And so, we're going to work through that and something that's been going off and on for a couple of years now. Beyond Southeast Asia, China was up double digits. Latin America was up in the 20s and Middle East and Africa was up mid-single digit for us. So, we're still -- we still feel very good about our D&E performance overall, but recognize we have a little bit of work to do in Southeast Asia. I think the team overall is doing a great job executing, bringing innovation into these markets, driving the price execution, which we've talked about. And we feel great about our commercial programming for this coming year.

Does that give you enough on D&E?

Andrea Teixeira
Analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Yeah. No, I guess on the developed markets, though, what is embedded in your guidance? Because I'm assuming you're thinking of elasticities just kicking in stronger for this year? Or because it seems as if, at least in North America, I know the puts and takes from North America growth was subdued in the fourth quarter, so hoping to see if there is any puts and takes as you took more pricing? And what is -- what are you embedding into 2023?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. Let me just say, we had great performance across developed markets in the fourth quarter. I think, generally, approaching a double-digit in developed markets outside the U.S. U.S., as I mentioned, was up -- I think if you add Tissue and Personal Care, it was up about 1%, mostly driven by retail inventory changes differences. We exited a private label contract that was pretty significant. We exited or changed timing on a pretty significant promotion at a big retailer. And so that affected, I would say, the fourth quarter overall in the U.S.

But overall, I don't think we're putting out a number there specifically on each of these segments, but we are expecting continued good performance both in North America and developed markets internationally and very excited about the plans going there too.

Andrea Teixeira
Analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Thanks, Mike.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

It's strong innovation as well. I mean, for all the developed markets, we had a very pretty strong innovation pipeline that will come through. But going back to your deconstruction of the top-line, I think a couple of things I'd like to highlight on the year and how to think about it. As -- first and foremost, we -- as we go through the year, it's important to note that the first half of the year will be more muted. And when we say more muted, it's important to take into account the fact that, one, we will still lap the private label exit in North America that we talked about just now. So, that will continue to impact us in the first half.

And then the other bit is also we were lapping very strong comps from last year. As you remember, we grew 10% in the first half and we grew 5% in the second half. And then the third point is we will still have a lot of pricing that on a year-over-year basis is coming through in the first half because of the carryover. So, all that put together would put pressure on volumes because of those three reasons as we think of the first half of the year. As we go into the second part of the year, then that would ease. That's our expectation, and that's the way that I would think about it, Andrea.

Andrea Teixeira
Analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

That's helpful. Just one clarification that's missing on the -- when you said two-thirds of the -- correct me if I'm wrong, I understood it's like everything that you have in plan in terms of pricing is about two-thirds carryover. So, it implies that you have another one-third of pricing to come through in the plan?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. And I said earlier, I can't remember, maybe it was with Steve. But, yeah, we have a significant portion of carryover pricing that was launched last year that still carries over into this year. And then we've taken additional pricing actions since then. And so, we've generally announced pricing actions across markets that are taking effect this quarter. And so, that's also factored in the plan.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. They go into effect in the biggest markets at the end of Q1, so.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. And then on top of that, as I said to Steve, we have additional RGM actions or revenue growth management actions that are more typical and evergreen.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Like hyperinflationary markets, so -- where we have that pricing is part of the overall number.

Andrea Teixeira
Analyst at JPMorgan Chase & Co.

Super helpful. Thank you for the clarification. I'll pass it on.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thank you, Andrea.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Lauren Lieberman with Barclays.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Morning, Lauren.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Morning, Lauren.

Lauren Lieberman
Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Great. Thank you. Good morning. Thanks. So, I want to talk a little bit about consumer behavior in North America and elasticity. So, I guess first, on Personal Care, I'm sure you're not going to give us a number, but if I make some rough assumptions around the private label exit and inventory destocking, it looks like elasticity is less than kind of a one-for-one on the North America Personal Care business. So just kind of curious on your perspective on that and knowing how much of your innovation has been premium over the last few years, what you're seeing in terms of trade down behavior? Because the market share data looks not great. The brand is losing share to private label overall, but your shares look a little bit softer.

And then just on Tissue, there, obviously, expect there will be significant elasticity, there always is. But what are you seeing there in terms of that timeline to that kind of stabilizing? Should we think about it as when you start to lap the price and that the volume stabilizes? Or is the consumer under so much duress that there's space for that trade down to persist?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Lauren, I knew you were going to ask this and so, Russ and I were on the phone last night working through this. And so, anyways, here's a couple of things. One, let me just say in North America, and I would say globally, overall, we're seeing a resilient consumer. And I think that does reflect the essential nature of our categories. Generally, our POS or consumption volume where the POS Nielsen sales is in line with expectations. As I mentioned, our shipment volatility has been a little higher just because of some of these discrete items that we work through. This is the thing Russ and I were looking at last night. I definitely would say observed elasticity was slightly higher or the elasticity impact on volume was a little bit higher in the second half than the first half, but remains, I would say, far below what's modeled. And I think that does reflect the nature of our categories as being essential.

And I'll throw a couple of numbers at you. And these are category numbers, so not brand and they're public anyway, so not proprietary to us. But in Q4, pricing was up 7% in diapers. And EQ, right, equivalent units, the measure of volume was down 3%. And so, I think as you point out, therefore, the implied elasticity impact is less -- certainly far below one-to-one. The thing that I would throw in there on top of that, as you know, in the second half, us and our competitors have made a lot of account changes across all these categories. And so, the EQ definition includes count reductions, because it's based on a standard unit, right? And so, I might venture guess almost half of the volume decline is related to account and Tissue sheet count changes. So that was diapers.

And then the bath tissue, yeah. For the fourth quarter, price was up 11% for the category and volume was down 7% and recognize I might factor in 3 or 4 points of that 7% is likely to be a sheet count changes. And then adult care, the outlier because price was up 8% and then volume was still up, right, up 2%. And the delta, I think those were all fourth quarter numbers. What -- and the reason I say the elasticities kind of seems like the impact has increased slightly in the second half as in the first half, pricing was up mid- to high-single digit and volume continue to be up. And so, there is a difference. I think the consumer environment was different. I do think there is more pressure on the consumer, but I still think the category remains very resilient, because of the essential nature of the category.

So, I'll pause there, Lauren. Does that answer?

Lauren Lieberman
Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Yeah. That is great. And just the one piece that you missed was on the relative market share performance in Personal Care and any kind of mix dynamics [Speech Overlap]?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. Again, we feel very good about our overall performance. The brands, I think, in adult care, we were up 12% in consumption in the quarter. Feminine care, we're up almost double digits. Diapers was down 5%. And the biggest driver behind that, that private label exit was a minor one for us, but the bigger one was we have a large retailer that we knowingly shifted an event from Q4 last year -- prior year into Q3 of this year. So, we lost that. On top of that, they had a big private label event, which we know about and planned for and that moved from Q3 to Q4. So, there's a double whammy on the share side, and that accounted for the majority of our share impact in the quarter. And that happened in October, I think, the cycle for us. And so, we saw it later in the quarter, certainly, better performance from Huggies, and we feel great about where we stand.

And as I told you, we have -- this is the Disney 100, so we've got great commercial programs for our characters on our products. We've got great innovation that we're really excited about. I hate to say, but when you come out and visit with us, we'll take you to our war room on poop superiority and so -- but we feel very good about our offering and what we're going to be doing there.

Lauren Lieberman
Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

I mean, I'm going to put the poop superiority visit. I have my agenda for 2023.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

I know it sounds funny on a call, but this is the business I'm in.

Lauren Lieberman
Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Yeah. No, I get it. And then I'd be remiss if I didn't jump in on a modeling question. But just briefly, on the FX headwinds relative to what just seem like not terribly well-timed hedges, unfortunately, and then the wage inflation that you called out. Just any dimensional like gross margin versus OpEx just how to treat those as we work through the pieces?

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. So, the $200 million is on the other operating costs, that's all gross margin as you model it. And the -- in terms of the ForEx, a meaningful portion of it would be gross margin. There's a little bit on translation because of earnings, and there's a little bit on mark-to-market of any liabilities or assets we have in foreign currency, but the lion's share of it would be in gross margin.

Lauren Lieberman
Analyst at Barclays Investment Bank

Okay. All right. Great. Thank you so much.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

All right. Thank you, Lauren.

Operator

We'll take our next question from Javier Escalante with Evercore.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Javier, good morning.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Javier.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Hi. Good morning, everyone. I would like to come back to this elasticity question. So, you mentioned that it's healthier, but yet your volumes are down 7%, and I'm sure you could have itemized how much is your underlying volume growth versus market growth. So if you can give us that. So, what is the underlying growth without going to this happening in continents or diapers, just tell us, of the 7% volume decline, how much were one-timers? Because the other branded competitors also saw volumes decline of 6%.

And my concern is how -- what makes you think that you can keep pricing at these levels given what -- this contradiction between the elasticity that you mentioned that is better, but we see this mid- to high-single digit volume declines. And I have a follow-up.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. I mean, Javier, I think the thing that you have to get picture is there's a difference between what's happening in consumption, right? What's happening sold-through to consumers versus shipments, right? And so -- and I think that's what maybe the other manufacturer, I didn't listen to their call, but I'm also supposing I think they probably lived through some of the same effects as us. There's a difference between what's consumed, right? And so I said for the quarter, in North America across our businesses, our Personal Care business grew in consumption by 7%. Our Tissue business grew by 7%.

In the long run, I think you'll have to -- hopefully, you'll agree that in the long run, shipments should equal consumption, right? So you're not going to perpetually deplete the retailer inventories or eventually grow retail inventories over time, right? So generally, that's kind of what I look at as kind of the ongoing health of the business. Yeah, in the quarter, we did see some discrete changes, particularly as it relates to one, retailer inventory, which is probably the biggest impact for us in the quarter. But the other aspect for us is we did exit a pretty significant private label contract, which added a piece of it as well. So, those are discrete items, in general.

And I said on an earlier question, the retailer inventory changes for us, it's about typical for what we normally see. And so -- and it goes back and forth from year-to-year. And so, it tends to build itself backup over time. And that's why I don't view retail inventory changes as representative of what's happening to elasticity. I view what's happening to consumed volume and consumed dollars, right, as to what's happening with elasticity.

Does that make sense?

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, but you have not quantified those one-timers. So, what I'm asking you is to tell me, what do you think is underlying category growth for you [Speech Overlap] the branded competitor and inclusive of private label because you are talking about price increases in addition to whatever carryover comes from this year. And we wonder to what extent you are taking too much pricing and whether you can keep it?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Well, all I'll say is the underlying category growth in the fourth quarter was 7% for both Personal Care and Tissue.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

So, what about volume, not pricing. I'm referring to volume declines of 7%, Mike, if you could explain the underlying volume compliance?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yes, that's the shipment volume decline and then the consumption volume decline was low single digit -- low- to mid-single digit.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Go ahead.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Javier, going back to your question -- the answer to the question that you have on the one-timers, we have about 3 points would have been the one-timers. If you think of the inventory destock, if you think of the private label contracts, that would have been about 3 points out of that set.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Excellent. And then I have a more strategic question when it comes to private label. What do you see private label role in diapers, both in the U.S. and Europe? And to what extent that does it make sense to hold on to your operations in the U.K.? Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yeah. We exited our Personal Care business, primarily -- especially our diaper business in the U.K. about 10 years ago. So, I'm not sure what you're referencing there.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Andrex, the tissue business as well?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yes. I mean, yeah, we have a -- yeah, we have a great tissue business. It's the market leader in the U.K. What's the question?

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

The question is if you can tell us how is private label pricing in the U.S. versus the U.K., which we don't have -- I personally don't have access to and whether it makes sense to hold onto the tissue operations in the U.K. given the situation there. Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. I got it. I understand. Yeah, overall, again, we feel great about our brands and where their position is. Andrex, we have taken significant pricing just as we've done in the U.S. this year. It continues to perform well. And despite the price increases, it has grown share. And so, it's a leading brand in the United Kingdom and much abided by consumers. And so, it's a great business for us.

Certainly, this year, there's room for improvement because of all the cost pressure. And so that's the priority for us, as you've heard all year is we've been working to recover our margins on our branded businesses to offset the significant inflation that we've had over the course of the year. And I think the teams have done a fantastic job of that. That said, our margins are still below where they were pre-pandemic. And so we're working our way back up towards that.

Javier Escalante
Analyst at Evercore ISI

Thank you so very much. Very helpful.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Thank you, Javier.

Operator

We'll take our last question from Kevin Grundy with Jefferies.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hey, Kevin.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Hi, Kevin.

Kevin Grundy
Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group

Hey. Great. Good morning everyone. Thanks for squeezing me in, and Christina, congratulations, and welcome. And Mike, just to maybe tie together some of the more recent questions. I wanted to hit on your U.S. market share, which I think Lauren touched on a bit and then the promotional environment, which Javier, I think was just kind of getting at a little bit. But very specifically, how this plays out with the promotional environment? Some of the conversations we have with investors now is the pricing stick? Is the consumer going to be able to withstand it, particularly in some of your categories.

And then obviously, what's going on with commodities is not lost on retailers either. There's still kind of a long way to go to get back to gross margin targets, but still more benign oil, pulp etc. And then I'm sure your share is not quite where you want it to be in some categories where it's eroded, tissue, diapers, wipes, etc. So question just around promotional environment, how you see this playing out in your categories given the recessionary backdrop in more benign commodity cost environment and maybe what you've embedded in your outlook? And that will do it for me. Thanks, guys.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay. Yeah, Kevin, let me try to package that up. I mean, one, let me start with the share. It was a bit softer than we like in Q4, but I feel confident we're moving on the right track. I mean the softness was primarily in diapers for the reason I told Lauren, which is, we had a big event come out and then a big private label event, which we happen to supply go in. And so, that had a big impact on market share in the quarter. For the full year, we are upper even in 5 of 8 categories. We were down in 5 in Q4. That's why I said it's softened in Q4. We'll get it back on the right track. I do think -- I feel really good about our plans for this year and feel confident in our commercial activation in North America and then in nearly all markets around the world. I mean we have a few discrete items we're working across in international markets.

In terms of the pricing environment, I would say the promotion environment right now remains competitive, but I would say, overall, constructive, given the cost environment we've seen kind of, obviously, the broad pricing actions from most manufacturers across categories. Promotion frequency has returned to normal levels, both in Tissue and Personal Care. And that happened a while back. I would say the depth of promotion remains a bit shallow than historical, and I think that's related to the cost environment. However, on the consumer side, we can -- certainly, my comments on elasticity and the essential nature of our categories, notwithstanding, I do sense the consumer is under pressure. And so -- and we've been out talking to our top customers. And so, we recognize that the consumer is working through some challenges pocketbook wise. And so we're going to meet them where they need us and make sure that we're continuing to offer a strong value across our business.

And the thing about us is our aim is to lead our categories. And so we're not really -- we're not a niche premium player. We want to play across both value and premium. And so, we have a broad offering, and we want to make sure we support our consumers effectively along that. But for the most part, yeah, we have taken significant pricing. We are managing our promotions with discipline, and we'll continue to do that.

I don't know if that answers exactly what you're looking for, Kevin.

Kevin Grundy
Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group

I think that helps. But just to kind of tie that in with your intentions on the advertising and marketing, is it fair to say that should the promotional environment pick up, because of a weaker consumer potentially from your position, trade down in your categories that you -- it's not optimal, but you kind of view that 100 basis points in advertising and marketing, if you have to reallocate that to trade promotion as the year progresses then you cross that bridge when you get there. Is that a fair way to think about it?

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Yes. I'll say, yes, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. You have to -- my personal bias is, I'm not a fan of driving the business through promotion. I don't -- I can -- we can do it effectively because we know our ROIs on trade promotion as well as we know our advertising ROIs. And so -- and frankly, now, the returns on both are okay. I like the advertising ones better. And so that's kind of my go-to. And I think it's better for the long-term health of the brand.

And frankly, Kevin, it's related to question you're asking, our customers expect it. I mean they're concerned about value for their shoppers. And so they're not the biggest fans of all these price increases. But part of what they're looking for from us is to make sure that we're bringing commercial programming to grow the category for a long term. And they're so -- they're excited about our innovation, and they're excited about the commercial ideas that we're bringing this year, and so they want us to bring it. And so that's probably the bigger reason why we've picked up the investment in our advertising.

Kevin Grundy
Analyst at Jefferies Financial Group

Got it. Very good, guys. Thanks for all the time. Good luck.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Okay.

Nelson Urdaneta
Chief Financial Officer at Kimberly-Clark

Thank you.

Michael D. Hsu
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at Kimberly-Clark

All right. Thank you, Kevin. Shelby, I'm going to make my closing comments. I'll just say a couple of things. One, I'm confident in the strength of our brands and our commercial capabilities to position Kimberly-Clark for the long term. I'm really proud of the focused leadership talent in this organization and confident that we'll drive business -- drive our business to create long-term shareholder value and fulfill our purpose of Better Care for a Better World. So I want to thank you all for joining us today.

And with that, we'll sign off.

Operator

[Operator Closing Remarks]

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